Hey, this is Vicki from The Farm, so this is going to be a little out of the ordinary. It's a little uncomfortable. But here goes.
I had the privilege of being on my very dear friend Elizabeth Pearson's podcast called On Purpose. A lot of you know her from The Exchange.
She does so much to encourage and support us. women who are on a healing journey. So my husband and I received really just some life -changing news a couple of weeks ago and I called Elizabeth and after having a conversation with her and with Eric's blessing,
we decided to sit down and talk about it on her podcast. And we called it Finding the Gifts in the Heartache,
Finding Gifts in Heartbreak. Eric and I decided that we wanted to share it in our community. Our hope is that you receive something from it,
that you also find it helpful along your way. journey. We'll have season two podcast coming out soon on Farm to Souls,
but for now, this is just a very personal conversation that I had with my friend Elizabeth. I hope you enjoy it. - Hi everyone,
what a gorgeous day this turned out to be. I almost hate to be inside recording, however, this conversation was... was so rich, so impactful, and so good for my soul that it was worth every second of being inside.
I had the privilege of sitting down with my friend and Sage, Vicki Fraker. And I think you will love listening into this conversation today. So Vick, thank you so much for letting me crash this beautiful day at the farm.
- So funny. - Sage, I don't know about that, but I am so grateful for that. you're here. I love to have deep conversations with you, Elizabeth. It's one of my absolutely favorite things in the world.
Mine as well. I was just thinking as I was driving out here, when we started this podcast on purpose, it was almost two years ago, and you were my very first and my very second guest that I ever had,
and I will never forget it. It was on the topic of letting go of the desired outcome. [BLANK _AUDIO] remember that? I do. I do. That's a big spiritual principle and a lesson that's ongoing for most of us.
Oh, yeah. It's almost two years ago, and I'm still letting go of the desired outcome of a lot of things in my life, right? And in this world that we live in and so many things that were just completely out of control and felt like we had control,
but as we all know, that was a false sense of control. Yeah, it's all in the loose end to pretend like we have control. And so that's why it's really important to practice a posture of surrendering or opening and letting go and allowing life to move through us.
And so it is ongoing. And that's why it's so important to have friendships like yours that we can cheer each other on and pick each other up when we're moving down through life.
And things happen. Yeah. Normally, when we get together, we laugh hysterically. hysterically and we have to pause many many times because we are laughing so hard. But today's conversation might be just a little bit more serious than we're used to or not used to because we've certainly had difficult conversations but I'm just saying typically we laugh and this kind of lends to more of a serious topic and so I just wanted
to invite you on because one of the things that I admire admire about you and respect about you and really glean from you is that everything you do really is a posture.
It's not a, okay, yes, let go of the desired outcome, poof, you no longer are worried about the desired outcome. It is an ongoing continuum that we will forever be on in our life and our journey.
And I have continued to witness that with you and I as of recently, really, really was able to get a glimpse into. And so I appreciate you being willing to share with us today.
But do you want to go back and start at all with our conversation from a week ago when you called me? Yeah, I would love to first acknowledge about the posture that because it is a practice.
And sometimes I think we think other people have it figured out. out and really we're all just trying to figure it out. And so there is such power when we just acknowledge that this journey is ongoing and our lessons are ongoing rather than pretending like there is this outcome of perfection that we got to hit and stay in.
And so really settling into a posture, we take the pressure off ourselves. It's just what works for me to remind me that this is ongoing and it's not hitting high points of outcomes and crushing it.
It's sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong, but most importantly, I have compassion with myself when I get it right or even when I get it wrong. - Well,
I understand it is a posture. I think a posture is one thing. And I also, also think it's a practice because the more you do it, obviously, the more natural it becomes.
And so, yes, it is a continual practice for you. And you've been on this journey so long that it is more, let's say, easy, because I know it's never easy, but it can be easier for you because you've been doing it for so long.
When you are in the throes of something, it is so hard to surrender and let go. And it could really be millions of different things that you're having to let go of or relinquish control or,
"Hey, you know what? I'm not liking where I am right now and it might be a season of waiting, but here I am. I'm going to have these open hands and go, you know what? I'm not in control to begin with." Yeah.
Yeah. So just like even using the posture of openness and then the posture is to practice openness. openness, but if we have habits and practices of living life with open hands,
open heart, open mind, then life flows through us. But if we have a practice or a habit of clenching, tensing, controlling,
forcing as life moves through us, we will come back to that set point, that posture. of closing down and controlling. Sorry to interrupt you,
but I was just thinking of that when you were talking about life flowing through you and then this posture of tight hands, clenched fists, that kind of thing. I feel like a lot of us can allow life to flow through us when life is good.
But then the second that something comes our way that was unexpected, unwanted, unwarranted, whatever the word is. is. At that time, a lot of times we like clinch up.
Everything was good and I was happy when it was going as I felt I was in control. But now all of a sudden, whoa, something came my way that I no longer can control or want or desire.
And that's when a lot of us tense up and here's the thing. If you really stop and self reflect and look at your days, most everything we're not in control of.
of. And so it becomes this pattern of flowing with life or always swim and upstream against what life is bringing to us.
And so we trick ourselves into believing that when things are difficult, that we close down. But a lot of people, when good things happen or deep connections happen,
we close down. (upbeat music) it's hard for us to hold the good as well. And so sometimes an open and closed posture, it can look like when good things come and I'm using the duality of good and bad.
So when good things happen, we're open and when negative or hard things happen, we close down. And I would offer that a lot of times, good and bad things don't determine whether we're open or closed.
closed. The majority of us have a natural rhythm and a pattern of either having an open mind, an open heart, open hands, open posture,
everything. And so it becomes more of a rhythm. And so again, what the conversation today can roll over into is that when life happens,
how do I meet life? Do I have a natural rhythm, a natural pattern of trusting, opening, relaxing, surrendering, accepting?
Or do I have a natural knee jerk reaction of clenching my jaw, tightening my stomach, closing my fists,
like the closing off things that cuts us off from the life that it's trying to move through? us. Yeah, I can totally see what you're saying and how it is that muscle that's been strengthened in practice before we move into the deeper part of our conversation.
I'm just going to say this because as you're talking about, this is literally what I'm thinking. So 25 years or so ago, I somehow, I know, I was a camp counselor and they trusted me to take nine campers with me down the Nana Hella River and the are the problem.
Okay. Which you could see everyone could see your face. No, but they allowed me to take these, allowed me, they told me to go take these campers down and I was not a big whitewater after I didn't really know all the things. So I looked at one of the guides who was not going to be on our boat and I said,
Hey, I'm fine if it's just going to take me down the river. Like I can just go with the flow. And I said, but what happens if we get stuck or we fall out? And he said, if someone falls out.
out, the first thing you tell them to do is to lie on their back, put their feet going down river. And he said, your natural instinct is going to want to fight to go up to catch the raft or be with other people.
But he said, just allow the natural flow of the river, but put your feet out first because there could be some big rocks and you could bounce off of them and everything. So as we're talking, my thought processes is,
no, I'm good when it's good, just going with the flow down the river. But the second I get thrown out, which I did right away, first one, it's like your natural inclination is to fight it. And so I guess that's what I was thinking.
But anyway, that's neither here nor there because I really do want to jump in. But that's a metaphor for life. Like that is such a metaphor for life is going with the flow of life.
Because if we look at our days, like I said, like so many things during life. our 24 hour period days doesn't go our way or is unexpected or comes out of nowhere,
whether it's little things, medium size or big things. And so it really is that practice so that when you do get thrown out of the boat, it's just like an automatic response of knees bent,
facing down, hands open on the boat. back. Let's go. - Yeah, and it was something that's not your natural, so it definitely has to be practiced. Like you said, you have to practice that over and over to become your natural automated response.
But I want you to take me back to just over a week ago, where you called me and things were as they were one day and then very different the next day.
And so you can share it with me. little or as much as you want with that. But I want us to start with that before we talk about what I really want to jump into. - Okay, sure. I choose to do life with my friends on a very deep level and my husband received a cancer diagnosis suddenly just through a routine check.
- Okay. and on one day, on Thursday, we were just moving through our day, going through the motions, and then we received a diagnosis that changed our life in an instant.
And so the people I'm close with, I have learned to be vulnerable with and allow them to carry, hold support. support, love.
My husband and I during this really difficult time, and so you were one of the first people I called. And I was not expecting that at all, because like you said, we're just all going through life,
and you think everything is just hunky -dory. And I've heard you say it many times before, like, "What do you think is important one day and the next day?" That stuff didn't matter at Hill of Beans, but now here we are with this diagnosis and we're going through life.
chapter in your story. And first of all, I just want to say thank you for your courage and your vulnerability. You and I both love Brene Brown, and one of the things that she talks about is it's so easy to share 10 years down the road.
But let me tell you about where I was, and you're basically looking at a scar, but right now it's still an open wound because it's still very fresh, and so it's even more vulnerable.
vulnerable and difficult to talk about. And so I really appreciate you being willing to sit down with me today because I know it is so fresh. And I know that we have a lot of listeners that are walking through some type of diagnosis for a lack of better word.
It might be a job loss, a major move. It might be a financial situation, a relationship situation. situation and things seem uncertain, things seem out of our control,
things seem, "Whoa, where did this come from? I don't deserve this," or whatever it might be. But I know with the number of listeners that we have, it's like, they're certainly struggling with something in an area of,
"Wow, here I am and I have this situation that came to me, now what?" And literally the thing I am blowing away at the most,
I think in this moment anyway with you is I came out here this past week and it was amazing to me because even though you're still in that waiting period and you have to wait for your next doctor's appointment and the more specifics and the more information you said to me this week has been a gift and I looked at you like I'm sorry,
what did she say? And you were like, it has been a gift. In our marriage, we've turned towards each other. We have bonded over some things that you would never expect.
And yes, I can see that. But I think the thing that just took me back was that was what you were choosing to talk about. That was the focus. And if there's been anything I've learned from you,
it's that like I can call and complain about something or tell you this awful thing that happened to me And you every time are like what a gift and I'm like, I'm sorry.
Did you hear me? Did you hear what I said? And so even driving out here today, they're doing some work on that main road out there and The main country road The main country road is not exactly a four lane with lights But anyway,
so they had a stop and I was like, man, I'm trying to get out there and I thought okay Nope, I'm going out to the farm to talk about what a gift Life can be and it doesn't have to be either or and so I thought this is gonna be a gift Just to sit here for a few minutes take in a deep breath.
Just think okay start mentally thinking about our Conversation and you have taught me that life really is a gift like the things that come our way No matter if they're good bad,
hard, indifferent, but it's if we are open to seeing it as a gift, you can receive it as a gift. And so that's what I want to talk with you about today is what does that look like? How do we do that if that is not a practiced or a posture that someone's naturally been practicing for a while?
Yeah, I think that for me, it was an offering from Pat, who is my mentor and my sage of acceptance.
And it's also big in the recovery movement as well, is surrendering and accepting. And I think we don't even realize throughout our days how much we react and resist to what life is bringing to us.
And there are lots of different ways that we can resist. resist what life is bringing to us. Usually we complain. Usually we will reach out to anybody that will listen.
We start complaining in spew negativity of what we don't like about what's going on. And so there's this natural really posture of reactivity. And life is continual and it's always flowing and it's always coming at us and every moment of every day,
we have free will and we have the power to choose. Am I going to resist and complain and be negative? Or am I going to open up a little bit deeper and get curious and find some kind of surrender?
Find some kind of... of allowing whatever's happening to happen with just a lot of stillness and pause, not a lot of reaction.
And then the energy that we move through with receiving whatever information almost slows us down to go to a deeper place within ourselves to assess or almost...
almost witness what is happening with no reaction. And that doesn't mean that we don't have feelings about it. That is very different. A lot of times we get the too confused reactions,
emotional reactivity. To me is not the same thing as having feelings about it. What would be the difference? Okay. To me, it's awareness. So, to me,
what is the difference? unaware, I will emotionally react and I'll talk about all the things that happened in the past and I'll talk about how this is gonna continue happening in the future. And I'll just do this swirling reactivity of extremes.
Always, never. Like these feeling my feelings are very different. For me, it is more of a pause and an opening.
and then allowing what is inside of me to move through me and me witness it and almost dance with it, for lack of a better word,
but play a part in it and then allow it to move through and keep going. It's hard to explain, but they're very different. Does that sound like real woo -woo and spiritual and all of that?
No. No, it doesn't. It doesn't sound way out there or anything. It just sounds like, "Wow, I understand when I'm reacting and I understand when I'm not." But in the moment of a diagnosis or someone walking out on a marriage or a relationship ending that you thought was going to be forever or so many different things,
it's okay. In that moment, like, pausing and I think that's where it so hard Yeah, for me to wrap my head around thinking wait a minute. I need to react and then feel my feelings But no,
it's really that first pause, right? Right, but it's not in the moment that I learned that It's all the moments I was waiting on the road for the man who put a stop up where the road was closed down and I didn't react It's all the little ways it's all the stuck in traffic,
the little petty things and whatever in relationships, when life doesn't go your way, it's all the practicing and the little moments. So if I hadn't been living on the kind of rhythm that I choose to live on,
when we receive this about Eric, my response would have been very different. And it doesn't mean that I don't live on the kind of rhythm that I choose to live on the kind of rhythm that I choose to live on the kind of rhythm that I choose to live on the kind of rhythm that I choose to live on the kind of rhythm that I choose to live on the kind of rhythm that I choose to live on the kind of rhythm that I
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stages of waiting. So we have quite a bit of waiting in front of us I think the waiting and the moments of what I would say is darkness Some people would describe it as that have to be some of the hardest moments when a lot of people's lives,
it's like not knowing what's on the other side or not knowing what's next or ahead. And it's just that season of, okay, here I am, I don't like where I am, but I'm gonna trust.
- Yeah, most of life is waiting if you really stop and think about it. Now we're talking about a major circumstance in life. - Right. But most of life, whether it's little things or big things,
we do wait. Most things are not instantaneous. They're not, they're just not. There is a lot of waiting involved. And so we get to decide if a lot of life is waiting,
waiting for answers, waiting for relationships. Just think about how much emotional waiting, physical waiting, like spiritually waiting on God. - Oh yeah, there's so much waiting.
You know the visual that I keep getting? - Oh God. - No, it's a good one. I used to have a massive garden. I used to garden when I had all the kids at home for our vegetables. And I would go out there every day and nothing would be happening.
And I'm thinking I put in all this time and I had planted these seeds and I was just waiting and waiting. And then it would finally pop through the dirt and then it would start to grow. And then you're like waiting for the flower or the vegetable.
vegetable to show up and it's yeah that was my visual of putting all of this. But that's life. So if we know that the majority of life is waiting then the quality of our life becomes how do I wait?
Well not well. But we can practice. So in that waiting it's a huge huge opportunity and it really is a gift to practice.
practice trusting. So in my waiting, am I going to practice trusting or am I going to take a ride in my mind and just go and go and go and go and look at the past or look at the future and just let my mind take me for a chaotic,
miserable, suffering kind of ride? or am I going to practice feeling my feelings, acknowledging wholeheartedly and honestly how afraid and scared we are,
but then use that for me, use that to trust Eric more, trust myself more, trust God more, and not get lost in the...
outer layers of stuff that absolutely doesn't matter. Now's not a time for that. No, now's not a time for that.
And I get to decide, 'cause there are plenty of people, there are plenty of, I'm sure, websites or groups or places or the internet. There's so many sources, I'm sure,
that my mind could absolutely get distracted. distracted and lost in. I'm not going to choose that. Right now, I'm going to choose to have deeper conversations with Eric.
I'm going to choose to spend more time in the woods on my horse or around my animals. Eric and I, for the most part, are pretty disconnected,
but I have no desire to watch any TV. Okay, wait, just to clarify, when you said Eric and I... are mostly disconnected. - Oh yeah. - I thought you were going between the two of you.
- I'm sorry, yeah. - But you're talking about like technology, the world, social media, all of the, yeah. Okay, just to clarify. - But like I get to choose because a lot of times when people have intense feelings moved through them,
the natural choices are distraction. Anything other than to feel what is coming to me and through me. And because I've been on this path for a little bit,
I know that my feelings can be one of my greatest teachers and my greatest healers. Now is the time for us to be honest and feel what's going on. Yeah, I have a lot of emotions and a lot of feelings surrounding a lot of things.
I feel big and so therefore I hurt big and it can be a lot. But I want to go back to this idea of you receive a diagnosis or so many different things that a listener could be in the middle of or receiving or just have received or in a heartache.
And it's a gift. There can be gifts along the way. Like, how did you learn to be aware, to recognize, to receive that even difficult things can be a gift to you because,
again, over. over all the years I've known you, there's been countless times that I've called you with a situation or a relationship and how something was said to me or handled with me and you're like,
"Oh, honey, what a gift." So, for someone that's listening, they're like, "I don't see any gifts in this whatever's happened this season of my life. I don't see any gifts in this relationship.
I just hurt or I'm scared or I'm uncertain." uncertain or fill in the blank. But like, how is it not either or? How do you even start with I want to see the gift?
Well, I think just to answer that, that like it is so layered. You know me. So, you know, I don't say it lightly. Oh, what a gift. It's not dismissive or any of that.
No, but I will say the first time I heard you say that. I remember where I was. I remember what I. had just told you, and you're like, "Oh honey, what a gift," and I literally took a second and I looked at the phone and then I looked pulled it back and I was like,
"Did you hear a thing I just said?" That was my first thought. Like, how could you see a gift in what I just shared which was in my mind heartache? And so I know you now and I know that you don't say it lightly,
but I remember back at that because it was so foreign to me that that I was like, oh, she's serious. - Yeah, so I'm trying to respond from my heart and not my intellect,
because it's a very layered question and I'm trying to figure out how to answer it like succinctly or clearly. And what I will say is, because I have endured so much deep suffering and suffering,
my life through addiction and mental illness and depression and just so much chaos and suffering and confusion, when I started getting sober,
waking up, healing, working with Pat, as I started moving through that set point of suffering to some surrendering and accepting. I got a little bit of disdain.
between me and the deep suffering. And in that distance, I was able to see how because of that suffering,
I was becoming someone completely different. And so because of suffering, because of heartbreak, I have learned that who I become in my life the process changes because I experience deeper suffering.
I can hold space for people that are suffering deeply. It almost creates a depth within my soul that it sucks and it's hard and I don't understand it.
But who I become in the process becomes who God needs me to be. to be so that I can show up for life differently and other people differently.
But even that choice, even that perspective, that's what it is, it's a perspective, it's choosing to see differently, choosing to see instead of life is against me,
God is out to hurt me, I'm bad, I'm wounded, I'm not enough, and all that's left is me, God is out to hurt me. negativity to see when things happen to me that are hard,
that it's not because I'm bad and I deserve bad things to happen. It is because God is good and God is working out something that I can't see yet,
and I can choose to trust it or fight it, and because of suffering, I want to make a conscious choice not to add suffering on top of my suffering.
Yeah, but that's what a lot of us do. It just makes it that much harder and we dig ourselves deeper into that. But we all have the power to choose the life we want.
And we absolutely know that if we resist what is coming to us, if we shut down, we're going to be able to do something about it. we overreact,
if we, all the things, rather than become awake, aware, conscious, pausing, making wise choices versus emotional reactive choices.
And at some point, we have to consciously choose. Life is hard enough. I am gonna wave the white flag of action. adding more suffering on top of my suffering.
Which is so interesting because it makes so much sense when you say it like that, but yet I don't know if it's just these repeated patterns that we've gotten stuck in or just repeated behaviors over and over again.
But I hear what you're saying and what I'm thinking as you're saying this is, like a lot of people give me a hard time because I don't watch TV, I don't like movies, I don't like anything that's sad. And what I tell them is life is hard enough anyway.
Why would I go to a movie that's going to make me want to ball my eyes out to watch more suffering, whether it's scary or sad? Or I'm like, life is hard enough. So no, I don't willingly put myself in that situation.
But yet I can see and I have seen patterns in my life where I will do it in my everyday life. I sell but most people do and we're not conscious because I believe we're moving too fast for too long Cramming so much chaos like we're on the world's rhythm.
Yeah And anytime we're moving and accumulating and accomplishing and all these just continual. There is no pause There is no break. There is no stillness.
There is Nothing that stops us from choosing the same thing today that we chose yesterday There's room to be some kind of practice to stop the mind,
but we all have conscious choice to do that. But if not, you may consciously choose, "Oh, yes, I don't want to go to that movie because that could elicit or kick up some sadness or some suffering." And yet,
if something comes to you and you resist, resist, you're creating more suffering than five movies that are... You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, no I mean it makes complete sense. So I you said something a minute ago about when something happens to you I just want to ask you this question because it popped in my head Would you say and you might disagree completely with this statement?
That's fine, too But would you say that life happens for you instead of to you? Well, that's interesting because the first time someone attacked me on social media was because I had written something about that.
I vaguely think I remember that. I was right before someone and I had a neck breakdown. I was in the back of the barn crying going, "Oh my God !" I'd never had anybody. She misunderstood. So I think sometimes we get caught up in words rather than looking at the energy behind the word.
And is it too, is it? four? - Well, I don't want to get caught in the semantics, but I think what I feel from you is the energy behind it, if you want to say that, because I don't know that I've ever even heard you say,
"Oh, honey, life happens for you." Like, I've never heard that, but when you're looking at everything that could be a potential gift as opposed to what was me, I see it as a four,
which is like an offering versus a two, which is like a pummeling or something. - Yeah, one is one to me. is like an angry, vengeful God. Like I'm gonna beat this out of you,
a very punitive God, which I don't even believe in, but that's another thing. Or a very loving God that is purifying something in us because there's a bigger,
deeper thing going on that we can't see. And so, again, it's ancient wisdom. and I love ancient wisdom and I read it completely different today than I used to read it.
But a lot of people quote, all things work together or good. And so even though like with this just abrupt diagnosis out of nowhere,
I can see that this past week, shit that wasn't... important to us and that we were just busting a gut to do and take care of and figure out all of that changed on Friday morning.
None of that was important. So because of Eric and our understanding of God is good and God is working for us,
then we're gonna trust us that even though we don't understand God, this and we're in a waiting period and we have no idea what the outcome is, we're going to choose to trust that something's going on that we can't see.
And so rather than running around panicked, we're going to make wise choices. We're going to call people who love and support us and ask for prayer and healing.
We're going to make sure our thought process is focusing on what we want, not when we don't want, and we're going to feel our feelings the whole way through.
I'm not saying this lightly, but man, that's so much easier. I know that this has been a practice for you, but I just want to acknowledge, and instead of just saying, "Oh yeah, well that's great. Way to go." Like,
I want to acknowledge that, again, it didn't happen just today. or this last week. It's years of acknowledging that the smaller moments, okay, when I'm in the waiting or when something happens to me that I don't like.
And I think it goes along with so many things. It's just like the baby steps in order to put these things into practice. And we've talked about this a lot, but about I don't love being still for a lot of reasons,
but sciatica and other things to do. But. but I'm getting old. No, but I just remember even starting a practice of stillness with, like you said, at the red light, just putting your hand on your heart and taking a deep breath or feeling the water over you in the shower.
Like those were my baby steps to adding more time and more intentional moments like that. And I think this would be the same way, right? As far as practicing. Yeah, because when we receive hard things or information.
or whatever it is, we get to decide, am I gonna add any more suffering on this very hard thing that was just handed to me? And I think when we are conscious and aware,
we say, what do I need to think? Say, do, move, feel, how do I need to move through this moment so that I don't add any more suffering?
on the suffering that life has just brought me. You just said aware, conscious of that. And just this weekend, you and I were talking about this idea of space and allowing space in our days,
in our thoughts, in our moments. And I think of you when I hear that word, but when I go back to the world's rhythm and when I go back to all these busy women, I think think of the word margin.
And again, we're not going to get caught in semantics or anything, but it's, "Oh, I don't know very many people that have margin in their lives to stop what they're doing, like even to have this conversation or have enough margin in their lives and in their thoughts and in their feelings to be aware and to be conscious." Because like you said,
you pick up the phone, you call and vent, you complain whatever it might be, but I think there are so few people that have moments and let alone more than five minutes of silence.
Like, I know that's normal for you, but it's like you get in the car and people pick up their phone, they go on a walk, they're listening to a podcast or on their phone or, and there's no space. There's no margin to even be aware of,
okay, this has come my way. I can receive it as a gift and look for the gifts in it or not, I'm just acknowledging that with you because again, this is years of you practicing this,
but for a lot of us listening, it's like, well, okay. - But that you just listed practical steps. Sometimes I'm not about action steps 'cause people will cross it off the list and keep going.
And you listed it, like if you're going on a walk, pay attention to what's going on around you. Pay attention to what's going on around you. Pay attention to the walk, pay attention to the trees,
the wherever, if you're not out in nature. The people, like really be alive for the walk. If you're in the car, practice not listening to the radio, practice not on the phone or whatever,
like practice that silence. Those are action steps that then carry over and really do help you in those hard times. Those are very small,
doable action steps. Yeah, they are. But it's again, we're so wrote with so much of our life that we just, it's like at a habit or without pausing, without,
but it's a choice. Oh, it is a choice. So then I think the more we can tell ourselves that the more we realize we're not being forced to look at social media or listen to talking on the phone or whatever it is we choose that and So we have the power that we can also choose something differently Nobody's gonna choose it for us.
This is our life and we are 100 percent responsible for 100 % of the choices that we make So we have a choice when we receive a diagnosis or when we are devastated or when we are in Awaiting season we have a choice to look for the gifts gifts along with it.
I would offer that. I believe that. I believe that. I do with all my heart. And again, it doesn't minimize or dismiss the pain or the heartache in all of it.
It doesn't minimize that. And I know that in you and about you, but I am glad that you said that for our listeners who are like, but you don't understand my story or you don't understand what's happened to me.
And yes, I'm so grateful that you said that because it is hard. It's hard. Life is hard. Life is hard. Waiting is hard. And?
And it is beautiful. It is so beautiful and deep and profound and mysterious and grace filled in so many things as well.
It's all of it and flow. float down the river of life, open on your back with your hands open, your heart open, and trust life.
- Well, it just seems so contradictory to whether it's the way we are raised or whether it's how we're conditioned. But it's like, we wanna be able to see where we're going.
We wanna see what's out there, what's next. And if you're on the back in the river, like I'm visualizing myself on that. on the Nanna Halets, like you have no idea when the next rapids are coming. You don't know when the next bend in the river is coming and you're just on your back along for the ride.
- But if you're awake, if you're alive, if you're present while you're on your back, you will listen so intensely that you will be able to hear when the next rapids coming.
You will be able to pay attention to all of them. little things going on with life so it's not that you'll just be checked out looking up at the sky floating along on your back.
It's that you will be alive and awake for this one beautiful precious life you've been given and you won't miss a thing. It seems so counterintuitive but you're right. What you just said is if you were present in that moment on your back you'll hear the next rapids and all I'm laughing because I I was like probably because I was screaming I didn't hear the rapids.
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no you're exactly right. So Vic, you and I have talked about suffering and we've talked about hardship and how life is hard and I feel like a lot of us,
myself included, can add to our own suffering and it's like I wouldn't do that with a movie but I can see it in repeated patterns and now not choosing to slow down or to stop or to pause or to whatever." But I know a lot of people,
I think, that have suffered in their past, and I see them still there in that suffering, whether it's they had an ugly divorce 20 years ago and they are still in that or whatever it might be.
And I remember us having conversations surrounding that about not allowing allowing that to be our identity. And before we start to wrap up, I just want you to address that because I think it's important.
Yeah, it's a very delicate way to explain my perspective on it. And it's just mine. It doesn't mean that it's right or the only way.
But I know in the past, I have done that. I have gone through some. really, really incredible, hard things,
some traumatic things. And I didn't do my necessary healing. And so because I did not do the necessary healing to recover from that,
I was stuck there. And that became my identity. And I lived as though that was who I was. was rather than something that happened to me that I chose to heal from and get the right people to help me do some healing work around that so that I could use that heartbreak to become someone different so that I could help other people who had a similar similar heartbreak.
I had met myself deeply in that area. Therefore, I could meet other people deeply in that area as they worked through it. And so my suffering wasn't just for me.
My suffering and choosing to heal could then actually help other people on their healing path. So what we're going to do is wasn't wasted.
I think so many of us, you hear that and you're like, "Yeah, that's what I desire. That's what I want. I don't want this pain to be wasted." And I continue to see so many women that,
again, they had a difficult first marriage and they were so wounded by it, but they didn't do the necessary healing work. So then 20 years later, they're still in that, or they...
entered a second marriage and they're still suffering because they didn't do that healing work to begin with but I just think it's important that we address that so that our suffering doesn't become our identity.
Yes it is a part of our story. It's a part but it's begging to be healed. I believe we are all called to do our healing mark that's why I believe your work in the world is so important and what I'm sharing out there is important.
We are all called to stay on a healing path and help others heal as well. Like again, we're not other people's healers, they are their own healers.
But the more we stay on our path of healing, awakening, whatever words you use, then who we become actually is a gift to help other people do the same.
So our healing isn't just for us. And if we want it to become a scar and not a continual opening wound that oozes out on everybody that we come in contact with,
then we have to do our necessary healing work. And we all deserve to do our healing work. Which requires us to pause,
to be still, to be aware, to to ask for help, to get honest, to stay open, to be willing to do whatever it takes,
to not bring our past into our present so that it then becomes our future. Before I ask you one final question, I just want our listeners to pause with that for a second.
And if there is a suffering, or if there is a heartache, or an injustice, or something that has been in your past, just to examine, and is that my identity?
Am I still stuck in that? Do I still find myself complaining, being bitter, resentful, frustrated, pissed off, angry, whatever that is? But if that is your past.
If that is where you are, that wound is asking for healing. And you deserve to choose. some kind of healing in that area.
That could be a mic drop. Oh my goodness, Vic, I could continue to talk to you all day long and I want to circle back on another podcast with some things that we just briefly touched on, but we're running out of time and we always like to end every one of our episodes because it's called on purpose.
Like what's one thing in this area of when you're stuck, when you're in the waiting, when you're in the heart. when you're in the heartache, when you've received a diagnosis or somebody has walked out and you just feel like,
how can someone also look for those gifts? What would you offer them if they're listening and they're going, I didn't receive a cancer diagnosis, but yes, I have received this,
what would you offer them? I think it would probably be some ancient wisdom. Okay. - Okay, bring it. - Bring it. There is always a knowing that follows stillness.
There's a promise of be still and know. And I think that if we want to have clarity, if we want to learn to trust and surrender and allow life to move through us instead of fight with us,
that we have to concentrate. consciously choose some stillness that really does have the power to change everything. Even if it's turning off the radio in the car, it doesn't have to be 45 minutes in a loincloth and a teepee.
- Thank God, I don't know what a loincloth is and I don't have a teepee, so. - It's little moments of stillness that will actually flow into everything else that you do. - I think.
think the word that I keep hearing over and over again that's resonating with me is it's our choice. That's our choice. And we can choose to add suffering on top of that suffering,
or we can choose to turn the radio off, to turn the phone off, to turn the podcast off, not this one, but any other one. This kid is just kidding. But no, to choose it.
But I think we so caught up in life happening to us and it's we don't have a choice, but no, you're right. We are 100 % responsible for our life. For 100 % of the choices we make.
Yeah. So that word choice, like we have a choice to look for the gifts. We have a choice to look for the good because it doesn't have to be either or it's not black and white. We can be in the middle of a waiting period and a middle of a hard diagnosis and we can see the goodness that is offered us.
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for being my friend and thank you for being with me today. I cannot tell you how much I love our conversations. And I hope you'll come back and do it again with me.
Always. My favorite times are deep conversations with you, Elizabeth. Thank you. Oh my gosh, I love it. And to our listeners, we hope that you will join us next time on purpose.
