We have a very special guest on our podcast today, Pat Smith
>> Bailey Moreland: M hey there. Welcome to from the Holler, the podcast, where we have intentional, deep, vulnerable conversations infused with ancient wisdom, spiritual principles, and a little bit of laughter. Join us on this journey of learning and unlearning as we come home to our truest, most authentic selves.
>> Amanda: We have a very special guest on our podcast today. Most people have heard us talking, actually, Vicki, mostly talking about her therapist, Pat. And I am so happy to report that Pat is with us today on this episode. So welcome, Pat Smith.
>> Pat Smith: Thank you. I am so nervous, but excited to, be here.
>> Amanda: Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. And for those of you that don't know, Pat actually comes into town usually once a year around Vicki's birthday.
>> Pat Smith: Correct, correct.
>> Amanda: So we're recording this, with Pat actually here at the farm. So she's able to see our podcast studio and be with us face to face. So it is a rare occasion, and we're so excited to have you. And, of course, we have Vicky here with us, too. Hi, Vicki.
>> Bailey Moreland: Yes.
>> Amanda: Hey.
>> Vicki: I'm excited and nervous, too, as well. When I look back 22 years ago, I never in a million years would imagine that we would have microphones and be sharing some stories and our journey and our healing together. So it's a little surreal for me. So, just from the bottom of my heart, thank you for being a part of my journey and being so committed to your healing journey that pointed the way and inspired me to find mine. So, thank you.
>> Pat Smith: Thank you.
>> Amanda: Pat's here. Pat's here.
>> Pat Smith: Okay. Knock her off the pedestal now.
>> Amanda: All, Right, right. Yeah. we won't put too much pressure on you, Pat, but we do love having you here. And we know that a lot of our listeners will definitely be tuning in to this particular episode.
>> Vicki: If you've been out to the farm or you follow us on social media or listen to our podcasts, you know, the power and impact of Carl Jung's work on my life, the two halves of life. And most of you know, there was just a lot of darkness, suffering, codependency, dysfunction at the first part of my life. And when I met Pat, that was when everything changed. She offered me a completely different way. And that's why I think I'm stumbling on my words or trying to find my way through today of it's a really, really big deal to have Pat here on our podcast. it's like a full circle moment having her here, because we do share a lot about reconnecting to the little girl within the root, and the reason behind that work is. It was the pivotal turning point of changing my life, of coming back home to my heart, to my truth, to authenticity, to being honest. It is so. It has meant so many things to me. Not just I'm going to connect with a younger version of myself. Sometimes when people hear that, you don't understand the depth and the power that is behind that. The reason for that is to help us come home to ourselves. And so Pat is here today, and I'm excited and we're nervous to talk a little bit about many entry points of what that looks like, of coming home to the truth, of who we were created to be. And a huge portal to that has been reconnecting to the little world within. And that is why it's such a foundational piece. Coming home to our truth, living from our truth, speaking our truth, living from our heart, is hard. But I think at some point, all of us are called to move to a different place of the morning and the afternoon of our life. And that is what Pat gave me. And yes, she gave me tools and all those beautiful things, but more importantly, she was on the path herself and modeled what it looked like to live that kind of life.
>> Pat Smith: Thanks. Well, I always say that people give me, you know, all the credit, but it really is the people that do the work, the clients that I work with. It is hard, but it is also. It can be liberating for people.
>> Vicki: Absolutely.
>> Pat Smith: You know, even for me, having gone through my own 25 years of therapy, when I met that special therapist, because we've talked about, you know, paying it forward, it was liberating to be validated to go back to that little girl and heal those wounds. It was liberating to be seen, to be heard, to be loved. It's painful, you know, then you have to deal with, I think the hard part, Vicki, is all the emotions of that one deals with through therapy, the grief, the pain, the anger and all of that. But as hard as it is, it also sometimes isn't so hard because I worry that sometimes you might scare people. You know, we're not drawn towards always what's hard and difficult. But I think it's also important to note that it can be wonderful.
>> Vicki: Absolutely. No, it's. You're in a prison. If you're in dysfunction and suffering and pain, in relationships that aren't working, you are in a prison. You don't realize that you're in a prison until you have to take those steps of getting out of the prison. And I even remember saying to you when I was in treatment, I remember saying to you, you know that feeling when it's in the middle of winter and you're outside and everything goes numb and you've been numb for a long time, and then you walk back in the house to where it's warm and it hurts because things burn and things are starting to wake up again. That is what it feels like walking from out of just complete chaos, dysfunction, confusion, and into healing. It is different. It is a different rhythm. It's different language, it's a different relationship. It's different. And so there, to me, there is that place where we jump, from what we've known, and we haven't yet landed to any place. And I call it the free fall. And it's hard because we're not taught what to do in the free fall, so. And I think that's why we're in community. That's why we have each other. That's why you had your therapist that helped to save your life, and you helped to save my life. That is, why I believe that we're here is we are here to open the door inward and to courageously look and see what is there then the hard part. And, yes, it's so worth it. But so few people are willing to do that necessary work of opening the door inward and getting on a path to do that work. And then that becomes, I believe, our life's work in some capacity to then share what we're learning about ourselves.
>> Pat Smith: I think that's a good point where it becomes liberating. I think it's fear. I think a lot of people are afraid to go to the unknown or jump off the cliff. So I think a lot of it is finding that safe place or that safe person before you get into all of the work. And that's what I really have tried to be. I remember when we first met, you described like, people have to be in pain. They have to, you know, things become normalized, even dysfunction, which is, you know, what, you know, you can even know how much pain you're in. So when you're in pain or things aren't working, is when you kind of reach for help. Not everybody does, but some do. It's like hitting the bottom.
Pat says Vicki helped him feel his feelings 22 years ago
Like they say in addiction, you gotta be come to the end of yourself or be at the bottom.
>> Vicki: And so let me just say this about what you said a little while ago, is most of us were not brought up in a way that what was modeled for us was to feel our feelings and deal with emotions and all those things. So when someone comes along that starts modeling that for us. To me, that is what you did for me. You gave me hope and you gave me an image or a version of another way to show up for life. And I didn't know what that meant. It wasn't like I articulated at the time, but my heart was drawn to your heart and the way you were choosing to live it is that I was in immense pain and I was broken open and I was ready for some help. But that's why I believe it's so important for each of us when we're called to do our necessary healing work. We never know the trajectory of our lives and how we're then gonna impact other people around us.
>> Amanda: Yeah, I mean, you figure out the secret sauce and then you teach it to others, right? I mean, that's kind of what are we here for? We've gotta be able to pass it forward, and I feel like. Or pay it forward, I guess so. I feel like, Pat, that's always what you've signified to a lot of women at the farm, even though you didn't even know it, you were the one. Whether we put you on a pedestal or not, you're still the one that had the greatest impact on Vicki. And so, of course, you're near and dear to our hearts.
>> Pat Smith: It tickles my heart to be here. Like you said at the beginning, 22 years later, m who would have thought? I mean, it's always in my hopes and. And dream, but I was fired by you so many damn times.
>> Vicki: Oh, yeah, yeah.
>> Pat Smith: I wasn't quite sure we'd make it, but we have. Here we are 22 years later on a podcast.
>> Amanda: How many times did you fire her, Vicki?
>> Vicki: We read a letter last night. We brought out some letters. She used to write me a letter in the beginning, from the first year to about the fifth or 6th year, always on my birthday, because that is also around the time we met. We met in October. It almost became a ritual that we would self reflect and look at where we've been, where we're at, and where we're going. And so she started off by writing me a letter from the first year to about the fifth year. And by the 6th year, she wrote me a goodbye letter because I had fired her. I guess that was when the work just became too intense and too. It just became too much.
>> Amanda: What was too much about it at that point? Can you take yourself back and remember what was it? Was it a, particular thing she was asking you to do?
>> Vicki: Yes. That's why there is so much liberation in what Pat was saying. There is so much freedom and healing. But it is hard because for me, I will talk from my perspective and reference point. I was trained, as we all are, and it is modeled and it is patterns and it is repetitions of being in life and relationships a certain way. And even though it is a prison and even though it is dysfunctional, it is what we know, familiar.
>> Pat Smith: M let me just step in there, because I think it's hard to at any moment think of what was the issue, what was it at the time. I think it's different layers. Vicki went to peeling different layers, and just sometimes it just, it gets overwhelming. And I remember, you know, it's kind of like her saying, I don't want to do this anymore. This is too hard. I think that was there, the enormity. If you haven't felt feelings like that numbness for most of your life, it's kind of like a thawing. And you really, as a therapist, have to be mindful of where your client is at, go slow, and just, you know, roll with it. I think the other issue, too is people want to hold on to the familiar, even if it doesn't serve them well. And I remember you saying a lot, like it was always this battle when I would address all the issues that weren't serving you and were actually, quite frankly, self destructive. Sometimes you want to hold on to them. You're taking everything away from me.
>> Amanda: All your vices.
>> Pat Smith: All the vices, and I wasn't taking them away. It's just a choice in time to look at as part of the healing.
>> Vicki: Process that's giving up those things.
>> Pat Smith: That stripping away.
>> Vicki: That stripping away of dysfunction when maybe you have been, in traumatic relationships or intense dysfunctional relationships, that stripping away, even though it is taking off what isn't working, the pattern of being hurt is what plays out. And even though it is a stripping away to get us to a place of healing or feeling better at the time, the pain of what is going on was so intense that it's almost like a bright light. Maybe that's more of a great analogy of a bright light. And the light gets so bright, I have to close the door and readjust the vision.
I think it goes back to fear. Cause I hear it day in and day out in my practice
>> Pat Smith: And I think it goes back to fear. I'm always going to keep coming back to fear because I think fear is what we all tackle with at different times. Cause I hear it day in and day out in my practice, which is fear of the unknown.
>> Pat Smith: And I really try to do the whole leaning into it, avoiding our emotions and our fear doesn't make it go away. It's like a coping tool we try to get through in the moment. But leaning into whatever you're afraid of, leaning into the anxiety, leaning into the anger is.
>> Amanda: What does that feel like, though? When you lean into something, you just allow yourself to feel it. And then maybe you don't know what that fear is like. Then you explore, what is it that I'm fearful of? Because I know I struggle with that. Like, in certain situations, I know I'm fearful, but what am I afraid of? Is it being embarrassed? Is it, making myself maybe not look smart? You know, like, what are the million reasons that I could be fearful of something?
>> Vicki: But I think just even the overarching theme of getting curious rather than just reacting, an old behavior of fearful behavior and then running with it. Sure, it's that, again, that is healing to me, is staying open and getting curious and saying, what is happening here? Rather than just that automatic reaction of what you've always done.
A lot of childhood wounds can cause responses in adulthood that aren't normal
>> Amanda: So let's talk about that for a minute. because a lot of childhood wounds can cause responses in adulthood that really aren't, I would say, normal responses because it's coming from a place that, you know, maybe was a childhood trauma response. Did I say that right? Absolutely. Yeah.
>> Pat Smith: I mean, that's the foundation of kind of my work is trauma. And, again, from personal experience and professional experience, that was what helped on my healing journey. Is my therapist helping me understand when I came into her office, broken, full of vices, feeling unloved and unworthy, going back to that understanding of how we're shaped as innocent children. And many people who are listening have children of their own. And if you don't go to a playground, watch a four year old to reconnect. Because we all carry our inner child, boys and girls, within us in adult bodies. And we are shaped early on in our life by everything. Our parents, our schools, our community, our biochemistry. All these things matter and shape us, and positively and not so positively. Unfortunately, a lot of it's handed down from our parents and their parents. For me, that happened, in my life, I had a very wounded mother, and so, who was unhealed. So I was subjected and shaped by her unhealed brokenness, which, unfortunately, carried on to me.
>> Amanda: but look at you breaking the cycle. And then you teach Vicky how to break that cycle. And then Vicki's teaching all of the women that show up at the farm.
>> Pat Smith: But I didn't heal that until I did the healing work. And so my therapist helped me understand that to go back to that little girl and look at my life in a different perspective. And it was work. But I think that's so important for all of us because we bring that into our adult bodies and into our relationships with friends in marriages.
Washington: Pat said your reaction to current situation is out of alignment
>> Vicki: So one of the things that I remember you spoke one of the most pivotal points. I remember Pat in the beginning saying to me, Washington, Vic, your reaction to what is currently going on is out of alignment. And I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know what that meant. And I am sure I came to her with a situation of something that was going on with someone else and me in a relationship. And I was overreacting to whatever was playing out. And I remember Pat saying to me, if you're willing to open the door inward and start looking at your reaction rather than staying focused on what the other person is doing to you, it can actually be a gift for you to wake you up to some healing work that needs to be done because your reaction is not in alignment with the situation.
>> Pat Smith: That's a tough place, too, as a therapist to kind, of tread because you want to validate people's feelings and their reactions. But it was kind of looked like, do you think that maybe, and because you can do this for yourself, whenever you feel something so strongly, whether it be anger or anxiety or discontent, and it's so strong, you ask yourself, what is coming up in me, this other person, people trigger you. It's not to say that you don't like the behavior or something they did didn't upset you because people say, they made me feel blah, blah, blah. But when your reaction is so intense, or maybe I call it out of proportion, you can look at yourself and learn a lot, like, what's being triggered, what's unhealed, what's this reaction about? It's peeling the onion.
>> Vicki: But that is not the natural response. And that is my point is we're not taught and trained and modeled. For us to open the door inward and say, wait just a second, let me pause. Let me put a little space around this and then let me get curious and say, what in me is coming up? What usually is modeled and trained is to look at how we're offended by other people and stay focused on that and then play that out over and over and over. So that then becomes the pattern. And then we strengthen, let's just say being offended. And then we start being offended by everybody and everything and their behavior and our dysfunction gets thicker and thicker and thicker with layers because we haven't opened the door inward and done, our necessary healing work. So it is. And in both, yes, our feelings are to be validated and people do hurt us. And it doesn't mean that we're not to set healthy boundaries and all those things. But the deeper, the deeper healing that you offered me, Pat, was to validate my feelings and all those things, but was to start opening the door inward into saying, there is another way to be in relationship with other people, rather than being triggered, reacting, exploding. Being triggered, reacting, exploding. It just became this prison of this continual behavior that wasn't healthy and wasn't working. And so that was where you said, there is another way. There is another way. I will help you validate your feelings. I will acknowledge that other people are hurting you. But let's look at what in you keeps being drawn to people that hurt you.
>> Pat Smith: Correct. Which went back to childhood issues of.
>> Vicki: Being abandoned, of resetting different pathways, of wanting to hold healthy relationships and good people, rather than being drawn to people that would abandon me or not show.
>> Pat Smith: Up for you or love you.
>> Vicki: Yeah, there's many levels of abandonment. It doesn't have to be put out on the corner, you know, at a red light and, or it can be, but not showing, not being available emotionally, I learned, was emotionally being abandoned. And so until I healed that, I would keep being drawn to people who did that exact same thing of how I was brought up in childhood. And so it looks different. And so we're like, oh, they, they're not treating me like the pattern I, learned in childhood. It's like, oh, well, let's open the door inward and look at that. And it's like, maybe it wasn't done exactly the way you were emotionally abandoned in childhood. But let's look at the theme that you keep leaning into people that cannot emotionally be there for you. That is recreating a pattern. And we have to get honest and look at that.
>> Pat Smith: But so I think what's important is people show up. Again, it goes back to knowing what, you know, people show up in my office clearly unhappy. Some, will and I want to find out why and figure it out, and they have no idea. Then there's people that come in and say, this is the issue that's bothering me. I say, okay. But then they find that that's not really the issue. There's so much more. So doing a ton of couples work right now, and, and I commend people who come and do that work. I think that relationships, I say, are hard. No matter what they are. Living together is hard, but relationships are hard. And we bring to all of our relationships what we know. And if so, you have unhealed patterns from your life or things that still need work on. They're just replayed in our marriages and in our adult lives. So a lot of times, a lot of the work for couples therapy is really looking at the two people as individuals m and what they're bringing to the relationship and developing compassion for each other and a different perspective going inward.
>> Amanda: Each of them going inward.
>> Pat Smith: Right.
>> Amanda: Saying, how is this playing out in our relationship?
>> Pat Smith: So that the arguments over the eggs or the children or, what they're arguing about isn't really what they're arguing about. And it's hard because the things we're arguing about piss us off. But again, the reaction may be out of proportion. So there's a, I like what Vicki says about curiosity. If you're willing to do this work, say, you do have to go inward and say, what's coming up for me? But there has to be greater awareness or understanding. And that's the first step with your own history, you as an individual, you as a child, what, how you developed, how your life has impacted upon you and what you bring to the relationships. And a lot of times people will come to therapy when they have children. And it's just a wonderful phenomenon because the brain remembers things, especially when it comes to trauma. When trauma is happening, people cope by sometimes ignoring, avoiding, dissociating. It's too painful. It's a protectant. It protects you.
>> Amanda: Sure.
>> Pat Smith: The problem is some of those skills are brought into adult life. So people are still using some of those coping tools which no longer serve them as adults that they did when they were children. So for some people, when they have a child is they start remembering their own childhood.
>> Vicki: Oh, yeah.
>> Amanda: Yeah.
>> Pat Smith: And sometimes even when that child's four or six or ten, the brain will remember pivotal memories, flashbacks, feelings of when they were a child, maybe same age. Yeah. And something happened. That's sometimes when a lot of people will come into therapy or they're just having so many difficulties with their children or parenting. So that can be a very useful tool and a very important time to do some of that self reflection and work.
Vicki says there are many, many paths to healing and awakening
>> Amanda: Going inward.
>> Pat Smith: Yeah.
>> Vicki: I think it's, again, you know, I'm deeply spiritual and I believe it's a call from God the creator. The source has always given us opportunities to do our healing work, whether it's through our marriages, as Pat was saying, or through our children or through our friendships or through our relationships. But I believe that we are all created to have a beautiful life and to express ourselves creatively and to share our gifts with the world. And yes, there are a lot of hard things along the way, but I don't believe that we're created just to suffer continually. And so many people, I think, choose to just, except just going through the motions of life, going through the motions of our relationships. I believe that that is a call that our life is off. It's not working.
>> Amanda: Something's not working.
>> Vicki: Something's not working. and it's not just to punish us. It's to help wake us up that how we're showing up for life and relationships is out of alignment with where our heart wants to take us, where our creator wants to take us. And we have to be willing to let go of the old, sometimes dysfunctional way of what we believe, of how we show up for life, of what we believe we deserve, of how we show up for relationships. Even as painful as it is, if there is continual suffering, something's off.
>> Amanda: Which is why we created the little girl, reconnecting to the little girl within workbook and journal. And then we've also got the online self study course as well.
>> Vicki: Yes, because Pat so generously gave to me and showed up for me and reminded me and helped me see there was another way to do life. There was a healthier way to do life. And so I believe now that is my life's work and now that is my gift that I can share with other people. Not necessarily that my way is the way. It's to open the door inward and find whatever way works for you. And that there are many, many paths to healing. Yes, therapy for 22 years is what I have chosen. But also that is why we offer so many things out at the farm. And now virtually with farm to souls, is there are many, many paths to healing and awakening. And that is always our message, Amanda, is to encourage people to find their way, get curious, get curious, get.
>> Amanda: Curious and go inward.
>> Pat Smith: I'm just going to jump in and say, though, that book is just so amazing. And I think if I had that book when I was working with you, I think it would have been a lot easier.
>> Amanda: So we did good, Pat. We did good with the reconnecting.
>> Pat Smith: Oh, my goodness. No. Because it really, it really, I am, will be the first to say I'm not this creative person like Vicki has this whole creative part to her and to make, to take something that's so kind of, I don't know, intellectual, emotional and put it in a course and a book and a step by step guide. Really, that is just so beautiful with the work that we've done is amazing. And, you know, there's a lot of books out there and self help and there are a lot of people that don't come to therapy and they do self help work. So I don't say therapy is the only way for everybody.
>> Pat Smith: Let me put that out there because there's people that can get healed without, quote unquote, a therapist. And a lot of people do turn to, you know, self help books and, and just books to guide them. But this book you all put together is just a wonderful step by step guide. It's simple, it's not complicated. It provides exercises, you know, because you really, Vicki, were like that. You wanted to know.
>> Vicki: I wanted small steps. So we.
>> Pat Smith: Concrete steps.
>> Vicki: So we started off with the work of John Bradshaw and it was so complex and it was so intellectual and it was. It was. It was such a deep, deep. I think the name of the book was, Coming.
>> Pat Smith: Homecoming.
>> Vicki: Homecoming. Homecoming.
>> Pat Smith: And then the shame that binds.
>> Vicki: The shame that binds you. And it was all good work.
Amanda Holler created farm to souls 22 years ago
But as I now wanted to share my journey, I have to have small steps, I have to have simple steps, I have to have doable steps. Because again, that was something I worked on with Pat. I lived in extremes. I would do all or nothing. And when Pat helped me see that the way you really do integrate and have huge shifts and change in life is you meet yourself where you are and you take small steps. And so I wanted to create my share, my journey. That was just my small steps. They may work for you, but then when Amanda, when you came on farm to Saul's, I think we're such kindred spirits in the creative area. And you took this very painful and sometimes hard work and with your heart, you made it come to life in such a profound, beautiful way. that I think that is why it's so accessible to so many people.
>> Amanda: It really is. And coming from, from Pat and having your stamp of approval on it is like, you know, I mean, of course, the contents for Vicki, but just to know that, that it's something that you approve of and would have used with Vicki.
>> Pat Smith: Absolutely. I mean, people don't realize my therapist was a psychoanalyst. Oh, you think about that. That was back in the seventies or the eighties. Wonderful. But I didn't get guides and steps other than the picture. You know, that was a very pivotal suggestion that she made. You know, to get that picture, go to a playground, look. Look at children playd. Get that picture. And I still have it.
>> Amanda: You do? You still have it by your bed?
>> Pat Smith: Yeah.
>> Amanda: Oh, I love that.
>> Pat Smith: I still do. Every night having this guide where you can really have more concrete steps, questions, you know, that serve the place of a therapist, to have you go deeper and look at those things. A lot of people that speaks to, you know, and not everybody is comfortable even going into a therapist office. So you can do this on your own and. Or virtually and get just as much out of it. So here we are 22 years later, and it's just full circle moment.
>> Amanda: It really is. It really is. And it just. I'm smiling ear to ear because it's just so cool to be sitting here with you and just knowing that this is what 22 years has got you to. And I think it's fantastic. I know. And you two are absolutely hilarious. So, Pat, I'm hoping that maybe, you'll stick around for another episode for the season, and so we'll kind of continue the conversation in part two. And.
>> Pat Smith: Sure. I would love to.
>> Amanda: You would love to? Oh, good, because we're not done with you yet, so stick around for more conversations with. With Pat. Vicki, any parting words?
>> Vicki: I think one of the things Pat said to me as I've, looked back at some of these letters that she had written me was, you don't deserve to do it alone. In almost every letter, she said, you don't deserve to do it alone, nor can you do this journey alone. And so I think that's what the farm is. That's what farm to souls is. It's. We are a community of kindred, spirited women finding our own way home.
>> Amanda: And a lot of men. Yeah, they're hurting, too. They need healing.
>> Vicki: Yes, absolutely.
>> Amanda: But, yeah, we are traditionally more women.
>> Pat Smith: Yeah.
>> Vicki: And just wherever you are, if you're listening to these words, like you were not created or deserved to do this journey alone, there's always people, places, and things out there that can meet you wherever you are to help you. Even if you don't believe it, it's okay. Just ask for a broader vision. Ask for a different lens to look through, and you will start seeing people, places and things that. That can meet you where you are and show up for you.
>> Bailey Moreland: Thanks for joining us on another episode of from the Holler. We hope our conversation today has offered valuable insights on your journey towards healing and soul discovery. We'd love, if you take a moment of your time to rate and review the podcast. This helps others who are on their healing journey find us. Also, stay connected with us on social media. You can find us on Instagram or Facebook. Facebook at farm the number two souls or visit our website at www. Dot farmthenumber two souls.com. as always, thank you for allowing us to be a part of your journey. Stay curious, stay open, and remember, you're not alone on this path.
