What do we do when people around us are not on a healing journey
>> Bailey Moreland: M hey there. Welcome to from the Holler, the podcast, where we have intentional, deep, vulnerable conversations infused with ancient wisdom, spiritual principles and a little bit of laughter. Join us on this journey of learning and unlearning as we come home to our truest, most authentic selves.
>> Amanda: This is something for me. I still haven't gotten the answer that I'm really struggling to find. And so having pat here, I think it, will be interesting to get your take on this. So one of the things that I've heard from the farm, and quite honestly can apply it to my own life as well, is what do we do? We talk about this healing path and our healing journey, and a lot of us get on it and we're going along just fine. And then we realize that the people around us are not on a healing journey. What does that look like? And how do you navigate that when it comes to staying true to yourself and your own healing path, but then also factoring in that you have all these existing relationships and those start to look a little different.
>> Pat Smith: Thank you. Glad to be here again. I can only offer things from my experience, personally and professionally. A, you may not want to hear this, but it's a lonely road sometimes before it's not, and you find like minded people in that community. But when you're on your own healing journey and you realize that you're in relationships with friends, I'll start with friends or people that are not, and it impacts you, it affects you. It's different because you're in relationship with them and it can be difficult. I think sometimes when you have something good, people want what you have. So it's like lead by example.
>> Amanda: I love that.
>> Pat Smith: Kind of like in the rooms of aa, you know, you pick a sponsor based on what you like to hear and their journey and their recovery. You know, people see what you have, they see when you're happier, they see when you're, you know, loving yourself and you're on your healing journey and they want that. So you can be an example of that. But you're saying, what about those people that don't want to heal, some of their issues and it can really impact upon you.
>> Amanda: I wouldn't even say that they don't feel, feel that they need to be on the healing. I think they just, it's almost just lack of knowledge that they should be on one, to be quite honest with you. So, you know, that's more of where my question was going was just, you know, as you said, it can be lonely, but there are a lot of relationships that you have to continue. Right. Even while you're on your healing.
>> Vikki: So that, that then becomes, I think, the friction that becomes the hardest part. And I can speak from my experience, but then also, it is like, the number one thing when people come out to the farm and they are all in and realize they have a lot of healing work that they would like to do, and they start out on their path. And when you get on a healing path, you even start using a different language. Let's just say you're starting to read a different book.
>> Amanda: Well, you talk about boundaries, you talk about going inward, and then all of a sudden, people in your life are like, what is all this stuff?
>> Vikki: Right. What is that? Pharma cult.
>> Amanda: Oh, I've heard that before. Yep. Yep.
>> Vikki: And so what happens when the people you love are not in alignment with where you feel called to go? Yes. That then becomes the crossroads because you don't want to just not be in relationship with people because it's usually family. This is usually people that we are closest with. So what do we do? And then the hardest part is spouses. What do we do when we start speaking another language and getting on a healing path and the people we love the most don't get it and don't want to come along on their own journey of healing?
>> Amanda: Well, they're just, you know, and we can't fault them for it. Right? They're. They're in. In. They're in their own place.
>> Pat Smith: They're.
>> Amanda: They're wherever they need to be in their journey in life.
>> Vikki: Absolutely. The goal is not to say, hey, I'm going over here, come along with me. But we hope that the goal is that there is some deep level of respect that can be maintained in both sides of the relationship of, I'm learning new things, I'm growing in different areas. I'm, doing all these, you know, staying committed to healing, awakening, all of that. And how can I respect when people want to be on a different path or want to be on no path or want to be on the opposite path or whatever it is? That's something you taught me, Pat, is people don't have to understand it, but the relationship does start breaking down if people don't respect each other's paths.
>> Amanda: Right.
>> Pat Smith: You don't have to understand it, but you can be supportive of it. Sometimes it is letting go of relationships. It depends if the relationship, how it's impacting you, is it impacting you negatively? Because some people will just maybe find where they're at, but it's not. And you're doing your thing and your self love and recovery and the other person is not. That doesn't mean they have to or it's not impacting upon you.
>> Amanda: Yeah. And it's just tough when they're not. Right. Because you're starting to see sort of the forest through the trees with your healing, and then it's like, oh, if only they could see it in themselves, you know? But that's not for me to do. Right. It's not for any of us to do.
>> Pat Smith: No.
>> Vikki: but, I'll tell you what is for us to do. And this is where it gets hard, because as someone continues to evolve, awaken and grow and change and other people are changing in a different way or choose not to change, we can't pretend that the relationship is moving in the same direction. And that's where I think it's hard, where we have to get honest of, I feel led to continue on this path and someone I love very much is moving in a different direction. And first, you know, the first thing is, I think, right, Pat, we want to love them where they are. But if the contrast continues and you keep going in opposite directions, you can't pretend that the relationship is someplace that it isn't.
>> Pat Smith: Well, yeah, and like, that's why I said, you don't like to hear this, but it can be a lonely road because for me, I wanted to be more and more around like minded people. So those friends, those close relationships that I had, that I could see that they were in need of their own help, and it matters, it does affect the relationship and the friendship, and it didn't serve me anymore. I always go back to that season reason lifetime.
If it's hurting one in a relationship, then the relationship is suffering
There are people that come in and out of your lives for different reasons, seasons and lifestyles.
>> Vikki: Let me say this, Pat, because I think this is important, because when you, because I know you and I know your language and I've, you know, been with you for so many years, when you say it doesn't serve me, it sounds like it can, it can appear as though this is me, me, my egotistical, like, this is not serving me. So I'm going to have to set you free. But if it's hurting one in a relationship, then the relationship is suffering. So actually, by not being good for you, the relationship as a whole is really struggling. Does that make sense or not really?
>> Amanda: Because you can't give the 100% like that it deserves.
>> Vikki: Like, because I think when you care so much about a relationship, again, this is recovery. And therapy. When you care so much about the relationship, you have to be honest. When you're, when you're not being completely honest of who you are and you're not being completely honest how your changing is affecting the relationship, then the relationship as a whole suffers. And so when you really do, like, that's, I love you so much. I want you to be free to be who you are and go where you need to go and have what you need to have to live the life that you need to. I love you so much. I want you to be free to do that. That, to me, is the love of the relationship. So I know, as Pat is saying, like, it's not serving me. I understand what she means. She doesn't mean the small s self. She means the deeper soul self of, if it is hurting me or not adding to the deeper part of who I am, then the relationship as a whole is suffering.
>> Pat Smith: I mean, I think we're generally gravitated to like minded people and places and things. We just are. Why would you, I mean, I, enjoy differences. I enjoy learning about other people and things. But in the day to day, when you're intimately involved with people, you kind of want to be with like minded people, even though they can be different. Right. But I think in you asking that question, what do you do when other people are on the path? I think you're really talking about people that you're involved with intimately because otherwise you wouldn't really.
>> Amanda: Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. You just start to realize that you're kind of lonely. Like, you know, in to your point, it's kind of that lonely space of, okay, I'm becoming somebody else, or I'm finding all of those pieces of myself that makes me who I am. Holy. And then, and while you're doing those things, it can be lonely. And then you realize, I think, let.
>> Pat Smith: Me give you an example.
>> Vikki: I think when she says lonely, I think that's when you let me, Pat grieve. You let me grieve for the changing in my relationships. And I think a lot of times we're not allowed. It's either, we argue or, like, we don't know how to grieve the ending of relationships or let go or let go of it or let go. And I think Pat helped me learn how to do that. That before I went outwardly and started just changing all my relationships, ending my relationships, that I had to grieve the loss of what was actually happening in relationships.
>> Pat Smith: Right. First you have to become aware and accept, like, does this serve me? Let me give you an example. So it happens often. We meet people, and we have certain relationships and certain dynamics that work, season, reason, lifetime. You have somebody who is always there for her friends, goes the extra mile, and then something happens to her in her life. I had a woman I was working with that very much a caretaker and a giver, not codependent, just able to really be available, show up, give. She's thoughtful. She goes through her own crisis, and these two or three friends that she really thought she was intimately involved with and were really close with didn't show up for her. She was grieving and upset. She didn't get a text. She didn't really get a phone call. They didn't do what she did. And we work through. Not everybody does what you do and has that capacity. But in a deeper part of her soul, she had to look at these friends that she had had for a long time and look at the nature of those relationships and if they served her, because as, she started working in therapy with learning how to love herself and ask for certain things that she needed and were missing and wanted in her life, she had to look at the people that were in her life, and if they were able to give her that or provide that. So that old saying, you know how when somebody says, you know who your friends are or you know who's really important when you're, you know, when you're in crisis, who shows up?
>> Amanda: yeah.
>> Pat Smith: It's so true. It's true.
>> Amanda: Oh, my gosh.
>> Pat Smith: It's so true.
>> Amanda: Yeah.
>> Pat Smith: And you're really surprised sometimes who you never thought would show up, showed up. And that happened in another case, too. So we have to look at those relationships, and she had to let go of a lot of friends that she thought were really there for her. Although before you just let go and say, oh, I'm done with you, she had a conversation, maybe with two out of the three, people, and one was really able to say, and she was able to express her feelings. I feel really hurt and disappointed, and she said, you're right. I was really not a good friend. I didn't show up for you. I'm sorry. And that's it. That was huge, and that turned that friendship into a completely different direction.
Pat says where are we taught to end relationships as we change
>> Vikki: but, like, into that, pat, like, where are we taught? Because I believe we all continually change. That's, again, the natural world. That's how we created ourselves. Our physical, everything just continually changes. Like, where are we taught in life? As we change and as we allow other people to change how to, in a healthy way, end relationships like most people either end them, ghost people, like, abruptly. That's what I was gonna say. Just deuces, which actually is hurtful to ourselves and other people. But where are we really taught to just have that hard conversation of, I'm changing and you're changing, and as we're changing, it appears to be that we are growing in opposite directions. And, Pat, you tell me all the time. Well, there are three choices. I mean, you say them kind of bluntly, but I know, they're life changing choices.
>> Amanda: What are the three choices?
>> Vikki: She says to me. She said it yesterday, like, God is. Eric and I were in a five hour marriage counseling session with Patton, you know, again. But she always says there are three choices.
>> Pat Smith: So when. Yeah, when couples come or friendships, you have three choices. It's like you're gonna keep everything the same. And I assume if you're coming to see me, neither one of you want to keep everything the same. Change it. However, it's a caveat. If you're gonna change it, both people have to work on changing things. No relationship is successful by one person or, you know, not successful by one person. So it takes.
>> Amanda: Are you sure, Pat? Because I'm pretty sure that I'm doing all the changes.
>> Vikki: So we're good.
>> Amanda: Yeah. Well, no, I was gonna say I'm pretty sure I do everything right.
>> Amanda: Just kidding. Like, I clearly don't need to change. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
>> Pat Smith: You'd be surprised if I had people actually really believe that and said that. And the third is split.
>> Amanda: Yeah.
>> Vikki: Yeah.
>> Pat Smith: You know, so when I said, it's a lonely experience, there will be shedding of certain relationships that no longer serve you on your healing path. And that can include marriages, and it can include relationships even with family. You know, you always hear about toxic relationships. Yeah, if it's toxic. There are people that choose to not be in relationship with their mother or with the. With a brother. and then there's detaching with love, which is, you know, again, going back to a lot of addiction. I embrace the consciousness.
>> Amanda: Is that withholding love, is that the same thing?
>> Pat Smith: No.
>> Amanda: Okay.
>> Pat Smith: I'm glad you brought that up. Cause people think that they do. When I talk to people about. We talked about codependency or I'm the.
>> Amanda: Queen of withholding love, by the way. Why that?
>> Vikki: There was some personal experience, because very quickly, you go withholding love.
>> Amanda: Withholding love. Yeah.
>> Pat Smith: That's punishment.
>> Amanda: Yes.
>> Pat Smith: but that's. You know, Al Anon was for families and loved ones who deal with people with addiction. So they were very.
>> Amanda: And what was the term again? Tell me.
>> Pat Smith: Detaching with love.
>> Amanda: Detaching with love.
>> Pat Smith: So it's kind of part of that. When we talked about codependency.
Anne says you have to detach from unhealthy behavior in relationships
Okay, you're, you have a child, let's say, that has substance use or even mental illness and doesn't want to get help. And you, as a parent or even a friend, how do you just stand by and watch them self destruct? Incredibly hard. But you have to detach, which means remove yourself, step back with love and say, I love you. I want you to get help. I'm here for you. But you set clear boundaries. I cannot do x, y, z, you know? and I can't do it for you. Cause you get into that enmeshment and that codependency where you're over enabling, enabling all that. And people get confused with all that.
>> Vikki: Heavier, heavier, more dysfunctional. But that is one of the things that, Pat, you really, really helped me understand, is that you can surrender and let go in love. I did not know that. I thought it was completely all in or completely all outd, but that realizing that the behavior of someone else is hurting you and if it's hurting one, then the relationship is hurting, that you create space, and that space unhooks you from the other person so that you can see differently, so that you can see clear, so that you can get a different perspective. Because we know if you're looking at something up close, it's going to be very different with a little bit of space in between it. M and so the detaching from what Pat helped me see is creating space between you and the other physical space.
>> Amanda: Or is this just.
>> Vikki: Yes, all of it, like physical space, emotional space. every relationship is different. But I thought, again, this was my wounding and dysfunction, that if I love someone, then I did everything for them.
>> Amanda: Right.
>> Vikki: And so to me, love really did equate to enmeshment, codependency, all the dysfunction. And so if I pulled away, like you just said while ago, then I'm withdrawing love, because love was the language. Was the language. Do you see that? How m applicable that is that you.
>> Amanda: Gosh, that's just not healthy. I got some work to do.
>> Vikki: We all do. We all do. But that creating space, to me, changes everything because it gives you a different lens through how to view the relationship. And with that, you don't have that reactive energy.
>> Amanda: I was going to say the emotions actually allow themselves to temper a little, I would imagine.
>> Vikki: And with that it's just like water settling and you know, this, the sand settling on the bottom. You can see it completely different. And when you can see it, you can understand your wounding that you're bringing to it by enabling or codependency or whatever. And you can see that the other person is wounded maybe and also see what they're willing or ah, not willing to do to help themselves.
>> Amanda: Right.
>> Vikki: And then that allows you to love the relationship so much and love them so much you love yourself and remove yourself from the unhealthy behavior enmeshed in that relationship.
>> Amanda: Yeah.
>> Vikki: So like in the way Pat would kind of have said that is you love yourself so much, you, you actually create more space, you know, in the relationship. It's like, yes, but what she taught me was in that loving yourself, you're loving the other and the relationship so much that you're not going to be a part of continuing the dysfunction.
>> Amanda: To make it suffer. Yeah.
>> Vikki: To make it suffer.
>> Amanda: Yeah.
>> Vikki: So that is what detaching. And look at Pat, she's like sitting, sitting over there shaking her head like a proud mama.
>> Amanda: She is.
>> Amanda: She is.
>> Pat Smith: That's, it's hard though. But I think you, with that question, a lot of people struggle with this. Like, you know, they're, they're on their healing path and somebody they're very close with, whether it's a spouse or a parenthood, hasn't done their work and they see the trauma and stuff and it's affecting them because if it's not affecting them, you feel compassion and you know, get some help and whatever. So it's, when it's affecting you is when you set boundaries, maybe have some tough conversations sometimes, you know, and you know, detach with some love. And then again, for some people that's complete detachment. For others it's a time limit. Relationships responding kind of differently. I always say you can't control other people, you can only control yourself. And I always, you know, Anne, my therapist said to me once and it always stuck with me and I always use that. She said, because you go into therapy and you're just like, they need to change and they're making me feel this way, putting all that control on the other person. And she said, you know, when you change, there's this dynamic that happens. Things change. It's like a see saw. It takes two people to make that seesaw going. So let's look at your part because if you get off that seesaw, if you don't engage. They can't engage. It's like, it works with kids, it works with spouses, it works with friends. If somebody's arguing with you and you argue with them and you go to match them, then you know you're at the same place. But if you remain calm and you respond differently, try it next time. Your kids tantruming or somebody's really yelling and arguing and it triggers you and you want to fight back and defend yourself and you don't fight and you just stay calm and listen. It changes the whole dynamic.
>> Amanda: They don't know what to do, right. Cause they're so used to the match, right.
>> Pat Smith: And when we're in relationships, people are used to being in your relationships with you in a certain way. And when you change, they notice it. And sometimes they get very, you know, upset or insecure. We'll say insecure, not really quite.
>> Amanda: Sure of their footing anymore in the relationship because they see you changing. Yeah.
There's a delicate balance between making changes in yourself and then becoming a teacher
Ah.
>> Pat Smith: And that's where we're talking about, like, you can not understand somebody's change or their path, but you want to be supportive of it and not threatened by it. But some people are. And you do have to protect your recovery. You do have to protect your growth and your change.
>> Amanda: And I think there's such a delicate balance though there too with making the changes in yourself and seeing how important they are to be making that change and then becoming the teacher. And are we here to sort of like, that's our role, you know, when you, when you know better, you do better and when you know better, maybe you need to be teaching other people how to do better. But it's that whole like non threatening way of doing it. Well, here I am on my healing path. Why don't you try it? You know?
>> Vikki: Well, that's what I was going to say earlier, Washington, for my personality, that when I started getting on a healing path, I started experiencing the benefits of taking care of myself in healthy relationships. I wanted everybody to experience what I was experiencing. And so I would go and just shove it down their throats of if you do this, then you can experience this. And that's not my job. Just because it was helpful for me doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to resonate and help somebody else in the same way it helps me. So that's why I'm always careful, you know, about like teaching, say, even saying the word, you know, I'm teaching because teaching can, for me, I can bring some ego to it of I've got what you need. And if you follow my path, then you can get the benefits I've gotten.
>> Amanda: Maybe it's more like a modeling, modeling, guidance being to show the way.
>> Vikki: But that does happen because you vibrationally, your energy changes when you come home to your heart and soul. When you get on your healing path, who you are changes from the inside out. And when you change and then you come back to these relationships, like, our hope is that then it will encourage other people to come home to their hearts and their truth and change and all of that. But it doesn't always work. And so, again, the definition of love to me is freedom. We have to give people the freedom to be who they need to be, even if they're on a self destructing.
>> Pat Smith: That's true path.
>> Vikki: And that's where Pat said, it's hard. It's hard and lonely, but you can detach and love and love people and see a higher version than they see of themselves while also, taking care of yourself in the process. It's not either or. It's. And in both that sound good to you path.
>> Pat Smith: I think it's something people struggle with. We're kind of lightly dancing around it. But if you're in a marriage or parents, people struggle with this all the time because they get gaslit and they get like, you know, they don't see that it happens. And it's. This is what tears kind of relationships apart. Unless one person's very clear. I'm working on my issues. I know what my trauma is, and I'm bringing to the relationship, but if we're talking off the record, but if you have somebody else, happens all the time. We'll gaslight you and blame you. You're crazy. You didn't, you know, they're not dealing with their own shit.
>> Amanda: Yeah, yeah.
>> Pat Smith: You know, and that's gonna wear on you in time.
>> Amanda: And that's where it's like, okay, what, what are some proactive things that we can be doing? And it sounds like, just stay on.
>> Pat Smith: Your path and then decide which relationships serve you and which decides what number.
>> Amanda: You'Re gonna go with. One, two, or three.
>> Pat Smith: I just think it's what I said at the beginning, be a shining light, and people will want what you have.
>> Amanda: Oh, I see.
>> Pat Smith: They really will. And those that don't want it, I'm not sure that that's going to work for you. It's always, is this helping me or hurting me? And protect your journey, your recovery, at all costs.
Pat Goshen says the healing path requires laughter and lightness
>> Vikki: So, Pat, I know I'm an extremely intense person, and so I feel things just with everything I have always said, I'm a big girl. I used to think I was too much. And in the way, and I have learned through you have taught me that I am also big in spirit, big in heart, big in love. So I am a big girl, and I feel things intensely. So when we started out on our path together, I had a lot of big feelings and intense feelings. And even now, like, in some of our conversations, even having casual conversations, like we are now, it can go real deep, real fast, real intense. And so if I float back up to the surface a little bit and I ask you a couple of questions, like, our journey has been so many things, but I also want to acknowledge that our relationship is fun as hell.
>> Pat Smith: Oh, my God. Yeah.
>> Vikki: We laugh and, I mean, like, stomach.
>> Amanda: You guys are nuts. You guys are nuts.
>> Vikki: But I think that's important to remember on the healing journey sometimes, because it can. Like, again, it's. It's. It can't be too heavy for too long without some laughter and lightness or joy. I mean. And so I think it's important to just acknowledge that, yes, the healing path is hard and heavy, and, yes, it can be lonely at times, but, oh, my God, I. The laughter and the intense connection that you get with other people along the path, it's like. It's like nothing else. It's so worth it.
>> Amanda: Amen. Amen.
>> Pat Smith: Well, I do tell people when they're doing this work, they have to take a break. They have to find joy in their life because it is hard. But the laughter and the belly of, laughter that we have, that's just because you're damn goofy. I am. And I'm pretty funny when I'm not. M seriously, I am fun because that, you know, I like to have a good laugh and fun, but you just trigger that in me because you are just so funny.
>> Amanda: She's a goofy girl.
>> Vikki: I am. I do like to laugh and be.
>> Pat Smith: A little inappropriate, and I think you tap into different parts of me. So we're like minded in a lot.
>> Vikki: Of ways, and we're different in a lot of ways as well.
>> Pat Smith: Goshen, quickly, quickly. Got that in there.
>> Amanda: Maybe we just need to have, like, an episode about the joy of being just in community and, like, just have a laughing session.
>> Vikki: But that. But that was what I was trying to point out a while ago, was that because we had a heavy session. M after kind of heavy session. And that. Yes. Then there is also, when you do this work, something frees up in your soul. To where you can connect. Also enjoy and laughter and childlike goofiness and and all of those things that are just as important as all this other deeper setting boundaries, speaking your truth like all of those are just as important but so is the light hearted childlike spirit that we need to tap into and remember.
Thanks for joining us on another episode of from the Holler podcast
>> Bailey Moreland: Thanks for joining us on another episode of from the Holler. We hope our conversation today has offered valuable insights on your journey towards healing and soul discovery. We'd love if you take a moment of your time to rate and review the podcast. This helps others who are on their healing journey find us. Also, stay connected with us on social media. You can find us on Instagram or Facebook at Farm the number two souls or visit our website at www. Dot farms farm the number two souls.com. as always, thank you for allowing us to be a part of your journey. Stay curious, stay open and remember you're not alone on this path.
>> Pat Smith: Close.
