Welcome to from the Holler, the podcast where we discuss spiritual topics
>> Bailey Moreland: M hey there. Welcome to from the Holler, the podcast, where we have intentional, deep, vulnerable conversations infused with ancient wisdom, spiritual principles, and a little bit of laughter. Join us on this journey of learning and unlearning as we come home to our truest, most authentic selves.
>> Bailey Moreland: So, Vicki, I have a story for you.
>> Vikki: Let's hear it.
>> Bailey Moreland: Okay. It's not about our topic today. So today's podcast topic is this idea that suffering is not a virtue, and pleasure or fun or play are not a sin. So we're gonna get to that, okay? Promise we're gonna get there. And this actually my story will relate to our heart of the holler today.
You have a whole study and a workbook around connecting with your inner child
I found this interesting, and I had to share it with you. So you have a whole study and a workbook around connecting with your inner child. And, I did that study with you.
>> Vikki: You did?
>> Bailey Moreland: Highly recommend it. I will link it here for anybody interested. but I would be lying if I said that that was an easy study for me as a very heady intellectual in my head, little connection with my body. it was a real challenge for me to connect with my inner child, and it's a daily practice.
Most people connect with their inner child by, like, riding a bicycle
However, the coolest thing happened, so not, fun. I'm replacing a roof because life and adulting. but I got the privilege to replace this roof with my dad. This sounds so weird. Most people connect with their inner child by, like, riding a bicycle or, playing with dolls, maybe, whatever it might be. Here I am. So, I grew up in a divorced household, and when I spent time with my dad, my dad's a carpenter, so he was always working on something. That's my childhood. Right. And I have the privilege now to be my dad's neighbor as of recently. And we're replacing this roof together because my dad refuses to hire anything out of. And for two days, I had to be his spotter because he's on a roof. He's almost 70. And I'm like, something's not going to end good with this. But I found myself connecting with my inner child while we replaced this roof. And it was the coolest thing, and I had to share it with you because I thought, you know, people come at this from so many different angles, and, you know, sometimes the classical way that we would think that we would connect with our inner child would be, you know, like I mentioned drawing with crayons or whatever, and here I am connecting with my inner child by replacing a roof.
>> Vikki: So there's so much more there. I don't know if you want to talk. because you had mentioned, like, playing with dolls and that, that is not, that is not how, I connect with my inner child or how.
>> Bailey Moreland: How do you connect with your inner child?
>> Vikki: it's always in nature, in creating art, there is some of that, and it is being on my horse. there is just this childlike giddiness and spirit that, just bubbles up from the inside out. When I allow myself this play and freedom to express and be and say whatever I want to say and feel whatever I want to feel. There are no restrictions when I'm doing those things in nature or when I'm on my horse or when I'm crying, creating art for the fun of it.
>> Bailey Moreland: I love that. And it's making me realize that perhaps there's a common, element in connecting with your inner child, no matter what activity it might be of. Just probably going to say it in a funny way, an unchartedness about the activity, because I think that's what defines childhood. Because you're so young and new to everything, so you kind of bring a spirit of. Heck, I don't know what I'm going to get into here. I have no idea what's going to happen.
>> Vikki: and I'm not in control.
>> Bailey Moreland: Exactly.
>> Vikki: So when you have this freedom of complete unknowing, of what can happen, and you don't feel the need to nail it down and control it, there is just this spirit that comes through that is allowed to, you know, express and come through. And so sometimes it sounds like your dad brought that out in you. So it's. When I talk about, about connecting to the inner child, it is connecting to the spirit of who we are as little human beings.
>> Bailey Moreland: Absolutely. And I would say that was 100% my experience, which is why I had to share it with you. So, again, I'm going to link the course. It's great. It stays with you. I did this course, gosh, it's been months now, and here I am, still doing the work. I love it. It's good stuff.
Emily Ngoski says suffering is not a virtue and pleasure is a sin
All right, so let's get to what we're talking about today.
>> Vikki: Okay?
>> Bailey Moreland: all right.
>> Vikki: I'm.
>> Bailey Moreland: It's a good one. I will say that the quote might be a little churny in your brain, but we're gonna break it down, so no worries. and again, here's the quote. It's by Emily Ngoski. She says, suffering is not a virtue, and pleasure, fun, play, or creativity are not a sin.
>> Vikki: All right, that even hurts to hear a little bit, isn't it? Yeah, because a lot of us are trained, like, indoctrinated. Is that the right word?
>> Bailey Moreland: That is the word.
>> Vikki: Just like, programmed, like robotically to believe. Walking on your knees, begging for crumbs, you know, is the way you show your love for others, for God. And it's. Any enjoyment is actually a pie that's taking away enjoyment from some poor child or somewhere.
>> Bailey Moreland: Oh, that's that scarcity mindset that we're going to talk about.
>> Vikki: Yes.
>> Bailey Moreland: So, yeah, so you're saying that we are indoctrinated at some point to believe this idea that suffering is a virtue. Said differently. This quote said, differently. We tend to believe that suffering is a virtue. And if you're experiencing any pleasure or creativity or fun, that's a sin.
>> Vikki: Or like, again, I don't know that that is what everyone experienced. I can tell you, growing up in the south, a lot of that is what I experienced. That you want to monitor how much joy that you have in your life or how much fun, like, there's, you can only have, you know, a little bit of that and you gotta prolong it and make it last a long time. And the, the greatest way you can love someone is sacrificially. I mean, that was to just the way I was, that's the way I was raised. And so I understand how a child can take that and be so confused and hurt by that, and then grow up with that mantra, whether it's just understood, you know, but grow up with that mantra of the way I need to love others is I need to hurt in the process, is the greatest way I can show my love for others. And if I allow myself, myself to experience some fun or joy, I definitely need to monitor and limit it and feel guilty about it, feel guilty and put restrictions on it. And so that then becomes just this. It's just this undercurrent that flows into most relationships, most activities, most, even our careers. You know, I think that's why a lot of us stay in places, jobs, careers, relationships that are so hurt sometimes.
>> Bailey Moreland: I think you just, like, tacked on relationships like it was just like second nature. Sometimes. We do what in relationships?
>> Vikki: Yeah, we stay in this dynamic of suffering for the sake of the relationship. And while of course, there are compromises that you make in healthy relationships, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when we are continually suffering, you know, for the sake of the whole, usually the whole is going to be very dysfunctional.
>> Bailey Moreland: And so I heard in there that your estimation is that for you at least, this came from religious messaging. This came from living in the south. Maybe this came from being female. some other places that I think this can stem from is obviously patriarchy. Media. Media. Media wants, you know, wants to share this message with us. The beauty industry really thrives on this message and, hustle culture. But I have a little bone to pick, or devil's advocate, if you will. Doesn't suffering lead to refinement and wisdom?
>> Vikki: Yeah, absolutely. That's why it's not either or. It's. And in both, it's always on a continuum.
>> Bailey Moreland: Wait, and. And both? What do you mean?
>> Vikki: Yeah, so a lot of what we say out at the farm, it's what I learned in recovery. Like, we like to go to these extremes of always, never, all or nothing, and that actually is going to usually end up in a lot of pain. I mean, so, yes, suffering is inevitable. Suffering can be beautiful when it is actually burning off something that is no longer needed. And so it's not that we don't, you know, that we're just trying to delete all suffering or, you know, or all like that.
>> Bailey Moreland: The goal is to be. Have fun all the time.
>> Vikki: No, it's so interesting how, our mind goes to those extremes. I am talking about when you said that statement from that quote, what got kicked up in me was it just hurt. Like, it really hurt. That quote hurt because it took me back to that place of an old belief, an idea that I let go of a long time ago, but that belief that I didn't deserve. Joy, fun, ease, flow, and that the best way I could love other people was to hurt myself. That's it. It reminded me of old, old beliefs.
When I think about culture, there's very much this transactional
>> Bailey Moreland: Yeah. And you said a word that kind of piqued, my interest there. You said the word deserve, and I think that has everything to do with it. When I think about culture, but especially, again, I can only speak for myself when I think about myself, there's very much this transactional. I have to endure this much suffering in order to deserve this much pleasure, play, fun, creativity. Right?
>> Vikki: Yeah, absolutely. It's working for our worth. And we're taught that at very, very young ages, rather than. I mean, it's just an understood lie is what it is. You know, that. That who you are comes out of what you do. And what you do, again, from the spiritual journey that I'm on, that is not who I am. It just isn't. There's completely different things that, yes, I would like for my doing to be rooted in love, and I would like to make a contribution to life. And I'd like to leave life better than I found it, but I don't. The. The. The lie with all that is, is the more you do, the harder you work, the more you are.
>> Bailey Moreland: That's right. That's right. And I really think that the machine of the lie thrives on that.
>> Vikki: Well, yeah. Because it keeps us hooked.
>> Bailey Moreland: Yeah.
>> Vikki: It keeps us stuck. It owns us.
>> Bailey Moreland: Yeah.
>> Vikki: As long as we can keep working to reach this bar.
>> Bailey Moreland: And the bar is raised, it gets everything.
>> Vikki: And there is no bar. There is no bar. There is no bar. It just. You can see how hard, like, a lot of people work all of their lives, and they're. And of course I want to work hard. We have a farm. I do manual labor. Like, I love making a contribution and leaving things better than I found them. But I don't equate my worth on what I do.
>> Bailey Moreland: I see. I want to.
I want to talk to you about pleasure. I want you to tell me what pleasure looks like
I want to flip it right here because I feel like we've focused a lot on, like, the suffering. I want to talk to you about pleasure. And for you, that might. That word might be fun or creativity or play. So we're using all of those interchangeably. I want you to tell me and share with us what pleasure and fun and play looks like for you.
>> Vikki: For me, the, word I would use is joy.
>> Bailey Moreland: Okay.
>> Vikki: It's inner joyous. So, to me.
>> Bailey Moreland: So hold on. You're not saying, like, it's the thing, like, the soft blanket or the yummy cup of coffee. That is pleasure. It's joy.
>> Vikki: Those things can be. Those things can add comfort and nurturing, and those things can add, give me more of a state of peace. But what I'm talking about wells up from inside. And so there's a book that we've done a lot out at the farm. I've probably done it six or seven times. But it's Anthony DeMelo, the way to love. And in the very beginning of that book, he describes kind of what we're talking about now. And he says, describe that feeling when you're applauded or you have the power or you're the girl or you're the thing. Describe that feeling. And now think about what it feels like to look at a sunset, to witness a baby being born. To. For me to be with your animals, you know, to think about one is an external feeling that comes from the outside in, and one comes from the inside out. And so he's asking you to contrast those two feelings so you can understand. One is fleeting and one can be long lasting, one is real and one is unreal, because then what happens is you need people to applaud you to get the feeling right.
>> Bailey Moreland: Right. I'm having a minute here, as usual, because I'm doing the exercise as you're presenting it, this exercise of, the hit, the zap. There's a book I'm reading with one of my sons, and it talks about the zap, the zing we get from like, alike on social media.
>> Bailey Moreland: So that external validation, yeah, it creates.
>> Vikki: A pattern in us. And even there's science behind what all happens in our brain when we get those external validations. It creates this pattern of needing the thing so that we can feel something.
>> Bailey Moreland: Right.
>> Vikki: And so we're strengthening that muscle of external validation, of needing those outside things. It doesn't mean those things are not good or wonderful or, you know, I love to be liked and all those things that you mentioned. But if that's the only opening that I have is external validation, I will starve, because not all people are going to like me all the time. And that's what I think is wrong with a lot of our culture, is we don't have those ways of, internally letting things well up from the inside and coming out.
>> Bailey Moreland: And would you say that's what happens for you when you are with your animals or in nature?
>> Vikki: God, yes, absolutely. I mean, it's. I don't have to do something. I, don't. It's just actually, it's more of a slowing down. The m mind that's my doing is slowing down because we do have to be responsible and have, you know, obligations and duties and all the things. But when we, when I go to that place and I can slow down my mind, what is inside is what starts coming out. And it's. Again, when I first started doing that, there was a lot of stored up pain and unfelt emotion. There was a lot of grieving that had to be done before I could actually get to the deeper things going on, that joy and all those other feelings as well.
>> Bailey Moreland: And for somebody that might be transitioning, let's say, from feeling like suffering was a virtue to the person that's trying to find a little bit more joy and pleasure in their life, how would you coach them through sitting with that tension that's going to come up?
>> Vikki: It's definitely different pathways in the brain, I can tell you that based on my experience. And that was where guilt came up. When I started even allowing myself, you know, little moments of joy and comfort and nurturing in the very beginning, it was completely opposite from the way I had done life for so long. And so it's different. And anytime we're making a change and things are different, they do feel awkward and clumsy, and we have a lot of these feelings that come up. But if we stay with it and let those feelings start passing when we get to the thing under, underneath the thing, we can actually start practicing the repetition of allowing and choosing something different in our life. That is just letting go of conditioned ways of being and allowing ourselves to experience healing and go into someplace new. But we have to practice that uncomfortability. We have to be clumsy. We have to fall on our face. We have to miss it. We have to get ourselves.
>> Bailey Moreland: Maybe I should say I don't like that. I don't love that that has to be the way. But I do feel comforted to hear that there will be tension and to just sit with it. The only way to the end is through. What's that?
>> Vikki: The only way out is through.
>> Bailey Moreland: So there it is.
>> Vikki: Robert Frost. That's one of our signposts. But it's like, yeah, once you go through it, like, you experience all the things, you know, that's part of allowing yourself to go through it, you know? I know we're maybe a little bit all over in this conversation. I hope I'm not. I hope I'm.
>> Bailey Moreland: We are right where we're supposed to be.
Wayne Dyer: I wanted to juxtapose the physical effects of suffering
Well, and I kind of wanted to bring it a little bit back to the. So we, so we discussed suffering. We've just had a really good conversation about pleasure and joy and happiness, and creativity. And just to get a little nerdy for a minute, I wanted to take a minute to juxtapose the physical effects of suffering versus. I'm going to use joy right now on our body. So just at a very basic level, our body has, you were mentioning different chemicals that are released in these experiences. So when I think about suffering, I think about stress and I think about anxiety, and I know just very high level that that's a lot of cortisol in our body. And cortisol affects us in many different ways. It affects our joints, our digestion, so on and so forth. So you're getting a negative physical effect there in that suffering stage. Juxtaposed to that, when you're in pursuit of pleasure, when you're in a place of happiness and joy, you are experiencing some chemical release of endorphins and oxytocin, the love hormone. And, that has like, a soothing balm effect on the body. And I think it's just important. Why did I go there? I think it's just cool to look at these things from different angles and facets to see how, they affect us. You know, it's not just all, as I'm on this pursuit to connect my head to my heart, I like to see that these feelings that I feel like, I feel sometimes all in my head have a physical effect on me as well.
>> Vikki: But I think that's really helpful, Bailey, because I think you're giving us a much broader perspective of when we choose to suffer, how much it really just starts seeping into every area of our life, and then that, you know, overflows into our relationships. And so it's. It's. We think we're actually loving others well, or that was kind of what I taught, is to not deny the self, but in reality, it hurts us on so many levels. It actually is. Is hurtful to others and to the world. And, you know, most of us, if you're listening to this podcast, like, we want to bring love and light and healing, we want to make that deep contribution. And so when we are choosing that way, it's like we are choosing to jump in a dark hole, and we think we're making the world a brighter place.
>> Bailey Moreland: Yeah, I mean, it's really crazy to sit here and have this conversation with you and realize how backwards it was. It's something I subscribe. It is. It really is. And it's, I think so many of us, you know, I can only speak to the female population, but it's something that we thrive on and that we bring a lot of benefit to society, to western society, through this concept that suffering is a virtue. And when we just really stop for a minute, we can see how messed up it is, how it physically affects us. but knowing, as we always say on here, knowing the connectedness of everybody in this creation, there is an outward effect that our suffering has on others as well. So, this is in no way saying that suffering is not going to happen, right?
>> Vikki: Yeah, absolutely. You know, going back to what you just said, Bailey, I think you being a mom and you being in a completely different generation than me. How old are you?
>> Bailey Moreland: 38.
>> Vikki: You're 38? I'm, 58. So we're, you know, 20 years apart. You have three boys. Like, there's just so many beautiful differences between us. And I know that you would not want to teach your boys that the way you love others is to hurt yourself. And so we know that when you choose that way, if you choose that way, that, that. That you're actually teaching others that that is kind of the pass down way. We're going to do things here a hundred percent. The indoctrination, you know, that I'm going to give you is here. And it's like, yeah, no way in hell do we want to teach our next generation that this is how we're going to make this whole planet better, right?
>> Bailey Moreland: No. no. How we're going to make it better is experiencing joy and letting that exude outward from us and then affect the person near us and affect all the plants and animals around. I mean, it just goes,
>> Vikki: I heard Wayne Dyer tell a story once, and I'll probably jack it up. And that's okay, because I do jack up a lot of things, and I love that I do that. He said this, I can't remember and what cassette tape? Because I don't listen to cassette tape.
>> Bailey Moreland: Excuse me.
>> Bailey Moreland: Excuse me. A, cassette tape.
>> Vikki: I do listen to his dvd's, but I do think I first heard this.
>> Bailey Moreland: 2024.
>> Vikki: I do think I first heard this on a cassette tape years ago. But this is what he said. There was a study. Oh, God. Now I'm going to try to get intellectual, which is hilarious. It's like, okay, it was done with me, a horse, a duck and a pig. No, I'm just kidding.
>> Bailey Moreland: Wait, what?
>> Vikki: This is what he said. There is a study conducted, and when somebody gives another person a compliment, the person's serotonin levels who gave the compliment goes up.
>> Bailey Moreland: Okay?
>> Vikki: The person who receives the compliment, their serotonin levels go up.
>> Bailey Moreland: Okay?
>> Vikki: If somebody is in the vicinity of hearing the compliment, that has nothing to do with them giving it or receiving it. They're overhearing it, their serotonin levels go up.
>> Bailey Moreland: That's so good. So good.
>> Vikki: I don't know where that scientific study is.
>> Bailey Moreland: We'll look it up, we'll figure it out. It's fine, whatever. Even if it's made up, it's so good.
>> Vikki: No, it's not made up. It's not made up. It's not made up. But that's why I was saying, like, okay, so there was a horse, a goat and a girl, and you know what I'm saying?
>> Bailey Moreland: I do. I like that. I will even try to find that study, and I'll link it in the show notes. But I just think that that's fascinating, that we're living in a culture.
The paradigm is shifting, but we're coming off of a time of sacrifice
I do believe that the paradigm is shifting, but we're coming off of a time of great sacrifice and martyrdom and suffering is the way just to even hear that. There have been studies conducted that show that the exact opposite of that.
>> Vikki: But we know this. Like, even Brene Brown talks about wearing that badge, you know, of productivity or suffering or all those badges. It's like, yeah, let's let that shit go. The time has come, like, when we recognize when you meet a friend and they give you the list of all the things they got going on and all the things they have to do, maybe we can just lovingly, you know, offer them a different. A different way.
>> Bailey Moreland: Absolutely.
We are emerging into a beautiful time where our worth is just us
You're really making me think of this word worth is coming to mind. So we were coming off of a time, or I'm just going to proclaim it that we are done with a time where we feel like our worth is defined by how much suffering we have, how much we're doing, how busy we are, how miserable we are, and we are emerging into a beautiful time where our worth is just us and our being and our here ness and our nowness. Even when that includes suffering.
>> Vikki: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's all included. As Richard Rohr says, everything belongs. But we're not going to wear our suffering as a badge of victimization. You know, we're going to consciously choose. And that's very different than meeting with a friend and saying, I am struggling. Life is hard right now. I'm in a dark hole. That is very different than the energy of listing all the things that we're doing and coming in out of breathe on two wheels hot, with our hands full of all the shit we're doing and all the shit we've done. It's, yeah, let's.
>> Bailey Moreland: Let's end that. Let's not do that anymore. Right? I don't like that. Doesn't feel good.
Vicki Yenang writes about pleasure and gratitude in her weekly podcast
All right. So I want to share a way that I'm practically putting this into play because I do have a disconnect between my head and my heart. So I had to kind of pick up an exercise where every day it's called pleasure and gratitude. So we've all heard about gratitude, journaling, and just identifying three things that we're grateful for in our day. And I do believe that is a very powerful exercise. This one's a little different where I try to identify three or more. I just, you know, put the bar low, shoot high. What does that say? I try to find three, places in the day where I experienced simple pleasure. And I needed this to be simple and practical. Otherwise I wouldn't do it, or it would feel too out of reach. So we're talking about being covered up by my favorite blanket. I like to drink coffee out of ceramic mugs. Where are these little things? Where do they show up for you, Vicki? These simple pleasures?
>> Vikki: You know what's interesting is I love the whole thing with coffee. Like, again, I'm not going to pretend like I'm drinking hot tea or something. Like, for me, it is straight up coffee with a lot of cream. But it is those little things, those little tiny things. There is something we pass over it a lot. And I think because so much has been written and said about gratitude, that we just go, yeah, yeah, I know. Oprah's gratitude journal, move on. Next. But that shifts our consciousness. And when your consciousness shifts, your perspective changes.
>> Bailey Moreland: What you focus on grows or expands.
>> Vikki: Expands or grows, either one. But there is something to learning to connect with the joy that is welling up inside of you without needing something external to bump up against you, to then experience that. And so it is the little things. I love to lay on the grass. I love to watch the clouds move. I walk barefooted all the time. I mean, it's just little tiny things. I love to ride in a car with the windows down and some Chris Stapleton country music. so good. That is church for me. I am not gonna lie. It is. It moves something in my soul from the inside out. And so whatever that is for you, find those things and offer those things to yourself. Nobody's going to do it for you.
>> Bailey Moreland: I have a quote for this.
>> Vikki: Bring it.
>> Bailey Moreland: Oh, it's such a good one. I mean, it was made for this moment. It's by Audre Lorde. She's a queen. And I'll share more about her in the show notes. Her quote says this, caring for myself is not self indulgence. It is self preservation, and that is an act of political warfare. Audre Lorde, a little backstory, is, an activist of sorts. And essentially, she's an activist for what we're talking about here today. She's an activist for joy and happiness and pleasure, saying that that is my birthright. That's not something that I earn. and it is her. It's how she makes her stand is by indulging. You reminded me of it because you were talking about taking the time for those little things, whatever they are. You're worthy. Do those things. Drink your coffee from a ceramic mug, walk barefoot, take two minutes to watch the clouds pass by. Whatever your thing is, you're worthy of it. And do it and find it in the little thing. Stop looking for the really big things. Right?
>> Vikki: Yeah. Because when you give yourself those things, you change from the inside out and who you bring to your relationships and what you do changes. So you're not just giving yourself, just your birthright of your nurturing and joy and validation, you are actually raising the level of consciousness in everything you touch.
>> Bailey Moreland: There could be no greater purpose in this life.
>> Vikki: I agree. Yeah, thank you for that. And thank you for letting me fumble over my big words that I try to meet your big words with.
>> Bailey Moreland: Your words are so beautiful. You're the yen to my yang.
Find three small pleasures that happen naturally for you in a given day
I'm going to leave us real quick with our heart of the holler today, and I actually had a different one chosen. But as we've talked, I think that it's more appropriate to leave us with this heart of the holler. And I'm going to leave it and you can give us any of your insight, but I know that practical steps are not always your favorite thing. So I'm going to be the one to drop the practical steps on you here. So the heart of the holler and the call to action, if you will, is for the next few days. I personally think 30 days is a good mark. Maybe for you it's three days. For the next few days, find three small pleasures that happen naturally for you in a given day. Okay? We're not manufacturing, we're not forcing, we're just going to find them as they come to us. And we're going to shift our focus from some other things that we might be focused on, maybe negative, maybe also positive to these pleasures and this enjoyment, these, things that bring us joy. How do you feel about that, Vicki?
>> Vikki: Yeah. What we say out at the farm is let yourself love what you love.
>> Bailey Moreland: Yes.
>> Vikki: And watch how your world changes.
>> Bailey Moreland: Love what you love. I must say it a million times a day because of you.
>> Vikki: Awesome.
>> Bailey Moreland: You're so good. Thank you, Vicky. This has been wonderful.
>> Vikki: Thank you so much.
Thanks for joining us on another episode of from the Holler podcast
>> Bailey Moreland: Thanks for joining us on another episode of from the Holler. We hope our conversation today has offered valuable insights on your journey towards healing and soul discovery. We'd love if you take a moment of your time to rate and review the podcast. This helps others who are on their healing journey find us. Also, stay connected with us on social media. You can find us on Instagram or Facebook at Farm the number two souls, or visit our website at www. Dot farm the number two souls.com. as always, thank you for allowing us to be a part of your journey. Stay curious, stay open, and remember you're not alone on this path.
